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Emperor Stats

Ilushia

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:02 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

So... We've seen several versions of this thing. This last friday I played against Orangesm with it, using the 'Giants Amongst Giants' rules for it, though ?with the added Supreme Commander. Charged 1600 or 1800 (Can't remember which now) points... The thing is scary, very scary. But I don't like it at that level. It's not so much it's not good enough as much as it is that the weapons are very random and the backup weapons rarely do anything useful (The Plasma Annihilator and the Defense Laser did virtually ALL the damage for the entire game that it did... All the Hellstorm Cannon did was place BMs and the other weapons did virtually nothing as well). I wanted to submit the following as a possible set of stats, for around 2250 or so, I think it better suits the style of the Imperator and would make it fit with the power-level of the other units in the army list:

Imperator Titan

Speed: 20cm. Type: War Engine. Armor: 3+. Close Combat: 2+. Firefight: 2+.

Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Plasma Annihilator 90cm 4x MW2+ TK(D3), Right Arm, Forward Arc.

Hellstorm Cannon 90cm 16BP Left Arm, Forward Arc.

Defense Laser 90cm MW2+/AA4+ TK(D3), Defense Laser Tower.

Main Battery 120cm 4BP Macro Weapon, Carapace Weapon, Fixed Forward.
4x Light Weapons 45cm AP5+/AT5+ Carapace Weapon, Right Arc.
4x Light Weapons 45cm AP5+/AT5+ Carapace Weapon, Left Arc.
2x Gun Tower 75cm AP4+/AT4+ Carapace Weapon, Right Arc.
2x Gun Tower 75cm AP4+/AT4+ Carapace Weapon, Left Arc.

16x Heavy Bolters 30cm AP5+ Body Weapons.

DC 18. Critical: Sensorium Dome has been damaged, roll a D6 in the end-phase. On a 1 the dome explodes dramatically, badly damaging the titan in the process. The titan takes D6 DC in damage, the dome is, of course, no longer operable. On a 2-3 the dome remains offline another turn. On a 4-6 it repairs and can be used again at full effectiveness. Any criticals caused after the dome explodes instead deal an extra DC of damage.

Notes: 12 Void Shields, Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armor, Supreme Commander, Inspiring, Walker (May step over any piece of terrain up to 2cm wide and as high as the titan's knees), Transport (The Imperator titan may carry up to 16 of the following: Skitarii, Praetorians, Skitarii Tribune. 8 are carried in each leg. In the assault these troops may fight the enemies attacking the Imperator without disembarking. Add their attacks as Firefight or Close Combat, owning player's choice, to the assault. No more then 2 may fight in close-combat for each enemy stand in base-to-base with the Imperator), Sensorium Dome.

Sensorium Dome: The Imperator carries ancient and powerful long-range scanners. These scanners use warp augurs and a massive bank of computing apparatus to calculate firing trajectories at lightning speeds. For each separate weapon-location (Left Arm, Right Arm, Defense Tower, Carapace and Body) choose an enemy formation in range and Line of Sight. All weapons mounted on that portion of the vehicle fire into that target.

Essentially it does everything. And I do mean EVERYTHING, you'd expect a 2250 point army to do. The only disadvantage it has is it can't hold down ground as well as they can... But you can load it Praetorians or Skitarii for fairly cheap and let THEM hold down terrain for it (I had considered including the cost of 16 stands of Skitarii in 2 units of 8 into it's base cost as well.. Which would, I think, make it worth around 2750 points or so and essentially make it an entire army all by itself). At present you would have to be very careful fielding it which I like... You really probably wouldn't be able to viably field it in a game less then 4000 points. You COULD do so in 3000 points, but it'd be harsh on your points-limits. Essentially this thing will walk right through your opponent's army at such a point-level though. So the rest of your points can go towards items capable of taking the terrain it clears (A couple of Cataphract Cohorts would be great for this).

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Hojyn

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:02 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France

Hi,

I just noticed this thread.

As you may have noticed I, like you, would really like to give the Imperator its rightful place at the head of the Titan Legions. I really like what you've done here, although I think you went over the top this time (not by much, but still...).

Now for the comments.

------------------------------

STATS

Speed: 20cm. Type: War Engine. Armor: 3+. Close Combat: 2+. Firefight: 2+.

Right. This is what I meant by "over the top".

RA3+ armour ? Come on, I know it's tough, but RA3+ (not to mention the 12 void shields) makes the Imperator virtually impossible to kill.
Also, even though I can see why you gave it 20 cm (it's got long legs for sure!), I'm not sure an Imperator should be as fast as a Reaver. I picture it more as moving ponderously across the battlefield.
As for CC2+ and FF2+, I'm not sure this is needed either. It already has Inspiring, 18 attacks + some more if there are transported troops inside, lets not make it invincible!

Basically, I think it was just fine with:

Speed: 15 cm
Type: War Engine
Armor: 4+
CC: 3+
FF: 3+

WEAPONS

First, I think assigning each weapon to a part of the Titan is a nice idea, although it could be made a bit clearer. I also think some weapons are a tad too powerful (the Plasma Annihilator really needs to be Slow-Firing, for example).

Here's what I would change (changes in bold, comments in italics):

Right arm
Plasma Annihilator 90cm 4x MW2+ TK(D3), Slow-Firing, Forward Arc.

It should be on par with the Nova cannon, but not better IMO : as it is, it hits more easily (2+ instead of 3+ for the Nova) but is Slow-Firing. Contrary to the Ordinatus Armaggedon, the Imperator can NOT use all of its power for the cannon, it has to leave some for the other weapons, the "engine", etc. Hence the Slow-Firing.

Left arm
Hellstorm Cannon 75cm 12BP, Ignore cover, Forward Arc.

This is also what I proposed in a previous post : the Hellstorm Cannon is somewhat shorter-ranged than the Plasma Annihilator, and I *feel* it should be given some ability (Ignore Cover or Disrupt) to represent the enormous firepower it can deliver. Finally, I've reduced it to 12BP so as not to go over the top when combined with the Main Battery.

Tower
Defense Laser 90cm MW2+/AA4+ TK(D3)

Main Battery
Main Battery 120cm 6BP Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward Arc.

By adding one more weapon location, this adds a bit more flexibility to the Titan ; it also avoids the player to "waste" his barrage by combining it with the Light Weapons and Gun Towers ; finally, I've made it 6BP, Ignore Cover so as to give the player the option to combine the Battery and the Hellstorm for a nice 18BP Ignore cover shot.

Carapace
4x Lascannon 45cm AT5+, Right Arc.
4x Lascannon 45cm AT5+, Left Arc.
2x Battle Cannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+, Right Arc.
2x Battle Cannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+, Left Arc.

Renamed the weapons so as to fit it E:A equipment.

Body
16x Heavy Bolters 30cm AP5+

CRITICAL

I really like it. One point that's unclear, though: "Any criticals caused after the dome explodes instead deal an extra DC of damage." >>> What about the criticals caused before the dome explodes?

NOTES

I like the 12 Void Shields and the Transport capacity. I also like the fact that the transported troops can take part in assaults.

SENSORIUM DOME

Frankly, this is a great idea: dividing the Titan in "weapon locations" and allow them to fire separately seems very logical and easy to use. Why didn't anybody think of this before? (Well, some people did, I know, but it was much, much more complicated...)
The only trouble is that it might make the Imperator too powerful. It really is a one-man army (or one-Titan army) now, and even though it cannot hold more than one objectives (or two at most), it seems very, very powerful in theory. But I really like it.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:17 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

I also like the Sensorium Dome idea a great deal. The Imperator should be able to fire at multiple targets (actually, I think the same thing for all titans, but that's a separate discussion).

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

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Ilushia

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:00 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 05 2006,11:17)

QUOTE

I also like the Sensorium Dome idea a great deal. The Imperator should be able to fire at multiple targets (actually, I think the same thing for all titans, but that's a separate discussion).

I'm more or less so in agreement with you. It feels weird that something as big as a Warlord can only shoot at one target... And there have decidedly been times I wanted to unload my volcano cannon into a SHT and still fire the TLDs into some normal tanks...

Over-all I think you've got the right suggestions there... I was kinda flopping back and forth between making the Hellstorm a MW barrage. Wasn't sure which to do.

The reason I made the Plasma Annihilator so good is I think it is almost as (if not as good) as the Nova Cannon... Even a single over-charged plasma throws out 3x 3+ -6 TSM shots into whatever it feels like. Nova Cannon needs something like 6 counters in maximum fire mode to do 1x 2+ -6 TSM. If anything I might knock the Plasma Annihilator up to 6x MW 2+, TK(1). Since it's not as good at tearing up titans as the Nova Cannon is, but it is better at killing non-titans (Gets more shots, with the same save mod). Not sure how well that'd work though. You're probably right about the stats. It's DC and Void Shields will probably make it good enough. I was trying to represent that killing it without titan-killer weapons is extremely difficult compared to even a Warlord. But it's likely not a big issue so I'll go with that. The 2+/2+ is probably too good, but it felt right. I mean an Emperor certainly contains more weaponry and much better melee capacity then a Warlord would, I'd expect. But even at 3+/3+ that's likely OK... I'd love to get to use it under these rules. It'd be very fun I think, even if it WOULD be most of my army!

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ortron

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:02 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:48 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Australia

Nice ideas there, especially with spliting of titan weapons based on location..

Weapon wise i'm inclined to think like Hoyjn, however with the hellstorm and main battery I think you should make them MW barrages and reduce the barrage points a tad.

Reasoning: The size of these things is similar to other MW firing cannon, and the shells coming out are going to simply blast most things to pieces. Leave Disrupt and ignore cover for rockets and flame type weapons.

other than that.. I'm very impressed with your ideas

Ortron

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Ilushia

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:49 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

Well keep in mind that at 3000-4000 points you're unlikely to have more then 2 more formations on the field... The enemy WILL out-activate and out-maneuver you vastly. The ability to throw out fire against multiple enemy formations is really the only way the thign will ever be viable at that point-cost. Otherwise you'll waste 60% or more of your fire-power on a formation it either can't hurt, or has already chewed up. I don't see it being a big issue to be able to throw out shots against 4-5 formations, since you can do that (rather effortlessly) with a similar point-cost in normal formations. The only 'up-side' is that it's just one formation so you'll only have to roll one activation for it. But that's also a downside since the enemy is more or less free to do whatever they feel like once it's done it's thing.

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ortron

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:54 am

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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:48 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Australia

what if you drpped it to 4 sections: each arm, carapace and body?

Or even 3: 1 for each arm and the rest of the carapace + body together.

That gives a target to each of the main weapons and also alows the secondry weapon systems a go. This would still allow the ability to damage 3 formations a turn but their would be some wastage of the secondry weapons depending on target.

To me it makes sense for each main weapon to choose its own target. The rest of the weapons are their to support the titan against either a rather deadly main target or to attack other weaker secondry targets that the main weapons would be wasted on.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:14 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

I just don't see that many targets being an issue... Yes, the BP weapons are scary and it gets 4x MW 2+ shots with TK(D3). If we went with Hojyn's ideas then it'd also have Slow Firing on that weapon. Meaning sure, I could annihilate a Shadowsword Company with the weapon in a turn a reasonable amount of time (Well, not annihilate, but break at least and wipe out one or two probably), but it won't do anything next turn. Originally I had the Hellstorm as a MW as well as the main battery. But decided that it made it too good. Going for, say, 8BP MW for the Hellstorm and 4BP MW for the Main Battery might work better. That'll give you effectively 5 MW templates if fired at separate formations, or 3 with a bunch of extra BMs when fired at the same...

For number of things hit: Please, keep in mind that this thing costs a huge amount of points and represents the combined power that should be comperable to as many formations of the same cost. You can field 3 Russ Companies and a Vulture detachment for that price! That's 30x 4+/4+ 75cm shots, 30x 5+ AT 45cm shots, 60x 5+ AP 30cm shots and the 8x 2+ AT 120cm shots off the HK missiles (One-shot each) for it's price. Or a Shadowsword Company, Tank Company, 2x Infantry Companies, Deathstrikes and a Mech Inf company for the price of this thing. 3x MW 2+ TK(D3) shots (No slow firing), 10x 4+/4+ 75cm shots, 10x 5+ AT 45cm shots, 20x 5+ AP 30cm shots, 21x 5+/6+ 45cm shots, 2x MW 2+ TK(D3) infinite range shots (One shot), plus the chimera weapons for this thing's price. And you'd ahve 19x 4+ RA, 39x no-armor, 7x 5+ armor and 2x 6+ armor in your army. Comparatively the 18x 4+ RA and 12 void shields just makes it as good defensively as your army for the same price. It's about as good in defense, comperable in offense, but not nearly as good in terms of mobility or holding ground. It does have the advantage of Init 1+ which is very nice. But I really don't see it as being too good. Even against what in my experience is 'normal' levels of TK in an IG force (Deathstrikes and either 1 or 3 Shadowswords seems to be the norm from what I've seen), you can easily look at stripping it's shields with something like Leman Russ, then hitting it for an average 7 DC with the deathstrikes and an average 6 DC with the shadowswords if you have 3. I'd start with the tanks then do deathstrikes last (Since they don't need LoS). That's 1350 points firing into it to deal it a good 72% of it's health in a single go! Now that's admittedly an optimal group firing on it, and the Shadowswords will be unlikely to get a second firing in... But is that so wrong? you've effectively just done about 50% of an enemy army's durability in damage in a single turn to it! With the kinds of forces I'd pack to go into almost any enemy (Heck, worse comes to worse you can put the Shadowswords on Overwatch as an anti-air-assault/anti-skimmer role!)

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Ilushia

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:35 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

It almost certainly is more resilient then other things fielded at the same points cost... But should it be? You're essentially giving up frontage for survivability. In terms of dividing up it's weapons I could easily see adding the heavy-bolters in with the carapace weapons just fine. That'd give it a grand total of 4 possible targets normally. Left/right arm, defense laser, carapace. I don't really want the defense laser as part of the carapace, as in my experience it's almost always a waste to have something like a volcano cannon thrown in with drastically lower-powered weapons like that (Ok... Volcano cannon has range... Kills a tank... And... Nothing else has range. No more damage). I also feel it keeps with the idea of allowing the various bits of the titan which are physically distinct to fire at different things. The defense laser has a much higher vantage point and better LoS then the c arapace does and certainly deserves to be able to shoot at what it wants to instead of being bound by the weapons in the other turrets. I'd really love to field this thiing at this point-level, as I think it'd be entertaining to see (Even if all the rest of my army is is a handful of infantry to support it!). Is your major concern just being able to fire on so many formations or actually damaging them? Cus I have a hard time believing that being able to fire on 4-5 formations is that big a deal, given that most of the weapons on it are going to have to be fairly close to fire, and fairly lucky to do any significant harm.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:38 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

It may be better then it should be... But it's hard to balance something like the Imperator... They're huge and ludicristly powerful.. And theoretically should be very expensive. But units like that are almost always game-breakers when you get right down to it. In almost any system a unit powerful enough to constitute 75% of the point-value of an army is going to be more or less the game-tone-setting unit. And it's tough to avoid that. It's much like fielding 2 Warlords in 2000 points (Which you can also do with AMTL), 65% of your point-value in two units... But they're two units the enemy will be VERY hard pressed to stop if equipped properly. 3 warlords for 2550 can field potentially 6 Volcano Cannons, plus 6 other weapons. Say 3 of them with one carrying 2x Volcano Cannons, 2x TLD, one with 2x Quake Cannons, 1x Chain Fist and 1x CLP and one with 2x Inferno Gun, 2x VMB. 85% of a 3000 point army, but it's a painful painful prospect for most enemies to face. The TLD/Volcano Cannon averages 3 kills against Russes, and better against lighter armored enemies. Quake Cannons are just generally nice and will pummel enemies hard, and the Inferno Gun/VMB can put out lots of heavy fire against enemy infantry to tear up big chunks of the field...

I just don't see the Emperor being that much worse in terms of over-all power then the 2-3 Warlords you could buy for the same price. Yes, it's very nasty. Yes, it'll chew up a lot of units. But I don't think it's unstoppably good.

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Hojyn

Post subject: Emperor Stats

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:57 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France

Hena, you're right on most accounts, but there are some things I'd like to point out :

- The Imperator, while more resilient than 2250 of regular troops, is also more susceptible to accumulate BMs and break : it *will* be the only unit of note in its army and will be fired at by each and every enemy formation;

- It can't use cover to reduce the amount of firepower directed at it, something which other troops can do. Thus it will rarely be able to use all of its weapons to maximum effect;

- The Carapace and Body weapons only have short (30 cm) to medium (75 cm) range ; while they're hardly the most powerful weapons on the Imperator, they will not always have a formation in range. If necessary, the Battle Cannon could be replaced with Lascannons, Autocannons or whatever weapons has a shorter range so as to further reduce the flexibility of the Imperator;

- It is slow and lacks maneuverability and as such it's rather easy to move around it or hide out of sight. Also don't forget that some weapons have a restricting fire arc (by the way, we could further restrict fire arcs to reduce the Imperator's maneuverability);

- As Ilushia pointed out, the Imperator will certainly tear apart the majority of the opposing formations, but it will be hard pressed to prevent all of them from seizing objectives. This in itself will be the biggest challenge.

Personally, I think it's OK as it is and only needs fine-tuning. If needed, its price could go up to 2500, I don't think it would be too far-fetched.

One thing I would like to do is apply this "split fire" rule to ALL Titans. It would be easy to do (just reorganise weapons by locations) and would only require a price increase to be balanced (say +50 for titans with 2 locations (Warhounds, Revenants, etc.), +100 for those with 3, etc.). Now wouldn't THAT be cool? :cool:

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