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Tiding from SG about epic
Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:53 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 04 2006,08:44)
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Question: What I would like to know is are more people playing Epic Armageddon now than were playing Space Marine over a decade ago? I may have asked this question once before but as far as I can recall no-one seemed to know the answer - or even to be able to guess at it.

Granted this might be just my perception, but it seems to me there were far more players of SM2 than E:A, but I'm willing to bet there are more players of E:A than for E40k.

Rose colored glasses or not, there's no comparison between the current level of support and the level of support for SM2. Now - no WD coverage, minis (for the most part) only available on line. Then - at least one article per every/every other WD issue, minis readily available in multiple hobby shops.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not E:A which has failed to spark interest, but rather it's GW's inane marketing. IMHO, E:A is an excellent game. It's too bad more people don't know it. Yes, more people own computers today than ever before, but not every gamer owns one or has reliable internet access.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:59 pm 
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I'll be buying all those Epic F/W aircraft when they come out !             And as always, in any intellectual (?!) discussion, all points of view are welcome, if they are meant to be useful, and not damaging.  And I believe no one here is being harmful; just a stimulating chat !  Like the Boyz at the gym when they talk/argue about rival football teams ! (Cleveland vs. Pittsburg !) :;):

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Magnus
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:59 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 04 2006,16:53)
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As far as I'm concerned, it's not E:A which has failed to spark interest, but rather it's GW's inane marketing.

Agreed. Considering more and more of E:A is NOT being written by GW, it may very easily turn out to be the best game GW ever released  :p

But the abysmal level of marketing/support would kill it even if it were the best game ever designed (i.e. Go).
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Vermis
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:26 pm 
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(consectari @ Aug. 04 2006,15:39)
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I tried to stay away from this thread, but I'm getting really annoyed at the way it has changed from defending GW to personal attacks against those people who are facing up to reality.

Bloody hell.  If you think this thread is just one big rant against GW detractors, your viewpoint has been well and truly coloured.

This whole thing is pissing me off, not because I don't think GW sucks, but because it's turned into a whingefest of truly warseer proportions.  I know GW sucks.  I've experienced it.  I don't need to be reminded of it and nothing else in every consecutive post of a thread.
Epicomms and TG have been brilliant in my eyes, up 'til now.  Please don't make me view it as another haunt of bitter old gamers who continuously moan and vent when they could concentrate on creative, productive matters but it eats into their moaning time.  I've drifted away from far too many of those already.

Can't we just get on with our lives?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Like the Boyz at the gym when they talk/argue about rival football teams ! (Cleveland vs. Pittsburg !) :;):


Those aren't football teams, they're American Football teams. :D

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Magnus
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:56 pm 
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(Vermis @ Aug. 04 2006,18:26)
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Epicomms and TG have been brilliant in my eyes, up 'til now.  Please don't make me view it as another haunt of bitter old gamers who continuously moan and vent when they could concentrate on creative, productive matters but it eats into their moaning time.

Uhm. Have you had any look at just a little portion of what this haunt of bitter old gamers was able to produce in the past few years?

Don't worry, we are very apt at managing an excellent moan/work ratio. Usually it goes like this: the more useless community members like me moan, meanwhile the good ones work  :p
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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:32 pm 
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I personally like a 30% bitching 70% productivity curve myself  :p   but of course its personal preference all the way. Its like the weather, "so its really hot today isnt it. Yep mr Brown, GW sure does suck."  :D  heads nod all roaund the forum.  The weather and GW are always something that gets mentioned. This forum is probably the least moaning place I visit that is related to GW.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:12 pm 
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I think that we should try to keep some perspective here.

I dont believe that comments from those such as Markconz are meant any more strongly than tongue in cheek. They have their points, but I dont take any comments as personal attacks in any way. Similarly, there are many members here from first edition, who have lived through a number of Epic 'Ice Ages'.

To tackle the question here, I dont know if there are more players of EpicA than there were of first edition. I suspect that the numbers are similar, and if anything EA has more players currently. I think that the issue is that with first edition, this number of players was fairly stable or increasing, while now the numbers are likely to be decreasing. There may be more EA players now, but this time next year? Who knows.

These boards do have a reputation for negativity regarding Epic, and in the most part this is deserved.

I would like us to all be more positive, but that can be difficult. At some point, we will all need to simply accept the situation as it is, that we wont be able to change the GW view of it all, and simply do what we can to keep the game alive and fun and discussed here.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:39 pm 
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I stopped posting to this thread because it was becoming polarized. But after Vermis' post I believe it is time to lock this thread. When it dissolves down to name calling and personal attacks against those who disagree the intelligent conversation is over.

CS, I believe it is time to close this down.

dafrca

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Reaver
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:16 pm 
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Just a quick point on this!
I don't know if you all realise, but the BloodBowl rules update has been completed and the new living rulebook is on the SG site.
Things are clearly not dead at SG. Rules reviews are happening. But it's slow, because they are understaffed. Whatever your view onwho's fault it is etc etc, the best thing we can all do is help by playtesting, suggesting changes and taking on as much of the work as we can ourselves. I'm sure Andy would be grateful for the help.
Regards,
Reaver (and yes, I admit it it, I'm an obsessive Fanboy!)

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:18 pm 
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(Grimshawl @ Aug. 03 2006,15:34)
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Your so right, I've lost many a potential Epic A player after giving them the I dont know, months to years till your fave aremy/force is available, maybe never. ?
who in their right mind markets their products like that?
line em up and I'll volenteer to shoulder a rifle anytime.

Hi!

I'd settle for a change of management...

..but sometimes offenses are so big that only a firing squad will do. :;):

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:20 pm 
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(dafrca @ Aug. 03 2006,17:33)
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(primarch @ Aug. 03 2006,12:12)
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I beleive in actions... not words.

For me the whole epic A drama has been a lot of promises, but little execution.

Amen. Fits my thoughts 100%. I love Epic and will always own minis. But Until I see actions, and I mean real actions I just can not get "happy" over words.

Here's another question for everyone...

Even IF the choas stuff comes out, its so late in coming, who besides us few will care?

Marketing a game is about timing as well as about the product and its availability.

How many would be epic players have already "moved on"?


In my area? Well, when the rule book came out I had eight people willing to meet every two weeks to play. Today, one other person still owns his minis and he has not been interested in playing for quite a while. So 7/8th loss.

dafrca

Hi!

Its so sad how many potential epic players have fallen through the cracks due to the bad marketing.

Go figure.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:23 pm 
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(Magnus @ Aug. 04 2006,06:34)
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(primarch @ Aug. 03 2006,21:12)
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As leader of the cronies, yes all GW executives should be shot....

Primarch

If you need an helping hand, here's another cronie ready to shoot....

I have to say I really find it amazing how people still support/believe in GW given their track record in the last 16 YEARS.

Maybe they're right an we're too cynic.

Me, I like to think of myself as "wisened up".

Hi!

Well, we can make list for the firing squad right here on these forums....  :;):

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:38 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 04 2006,08:44)
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Primarch and proud Primarch cronies ( :;): ). You talk as though the current edition of epic has 'failed'. (I also think that you have a very rose tinted view of the Space Marine years and of the marketing and support that was available then - but that is another story for another thread, or maybe an incoming article... ?:;): )

Question: What I would like to know is are more people playing Epic Armageddon now than were playing Space Marine over a decade ago? I may have asked this question once before but as far as I can recall no-one seemed to know the answer - or even to be able to guess at it.

Is it possible that despite the multitude of other games now available in the marketplace against which Epic Armageddon has to compete for a niche, Epic Armageddon may nevertheless have a more numerous player base now than Space Marine ever did?

I expect the response to this will be a dodging of my question and more complaints about how GW could have done a thousand things differently to what it has done. Nevertheless the question still stands. What are the actual numbers like? I would love to know. Come on - you guys must really want to show me some numbers and say 'I told you so!' ?:D

Hi!

There is no real objective way to answer this, since GW doesnt ever say exact sales besides general percentages. There are several "barometers" one can use though:

1. In 1996, the last year SM2 ran, according thier own retailer newsletter epic accounted for 9% of GW. According to GW fanatic as a whole is maybe 5%. Even allowing for epic having a large part of that 5%, its still much lower than is peak under SM2.

2. Market presence. Back then you get get epic anywhere where GW products were sold. They were not as high as 40k or fantasy, but available and readily obtainable from a LGS, not just a GW store. I dont think I need to get into its market presence today since it is a shadow of what is was under SM2.

Im not even going to talk about the comparisons between the release schedule of SM2 and epic A, becuase there is no comparison. SM2 had steady releases, at least every 3 months for 5 years.

3. Finding players. While this is mostly anecdotal and may vary by regions, it was FAR easier to get players in SM2 days (most would know what the game was even if they didnt play it).

IMO, SM2 was the golden age of epic, with marketing, support and sheer player volume unheard of today.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:42 pm 
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(Grimshawl @ Aug. 04 2006,09:18)
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Marconz how would you ave me anser that, I am one gamer, heck their isnt even an actual GW store in my state! I can tell you that when I started playing Epic, back in the era of space marine/ titan legions. I could walk right in to Indies and buy epic right off the shelf, I havent been able to do that the entire life of epic A. I was introduced to Epic, by three guys and their were another 8 guys down at my local shop who played semi regularly. I now know one guy locally who still plays. I personally introduced 4 people to the new game and even gave one of them an army. Only one plays today. I currently have a second army that needs a little work of Eldar that I would happily give away to any local player here if they were willing to play, I've had no takers on that offer for months. I myself own three armies worth of Orks, a decent Imperial guard army a space marine force, and my tyranids. but with all of that I still cant say overal wether their are more or less Epic players now than then, I havent travelled the world after all, for all I know Epic could be doing great two or three states over from me. Locally however we have no support watso ever. I have several articles in old White Dwarfs and even one hardback epic rules supplement from back in the day as well as my tryrands, Orks and ?Imperial supplements, etc etc, from back in the day. Today I cant get printed supplements anything like those. so from my perspective the new Epic A is already dead in the water compared to the SM days.

Hi!

I also forgot to mention that amongst the many retailers I used to know epic sales were a shadow of what they were under SM2.

Primarch

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