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Ad Mech the new Necron?
dafrca
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:19 pm 
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(vanvlak @ Aug. 02 2006,23:04)
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I am not a Necron.



:p

You forgot Yet.   :;):

As in:

I am not a Necron, yet.  :p

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:28 pm 
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(dafrca @ Aug. 03 2006,18:19)
QUOTE

(vanvlak @ Aug. 02 2006,23:04)
QUOTE
I am not a Necron.



:p

You forgot Yet. ? :;):

As in:

I am not a Necron, yet. ?:p

I am not a Necron yet, and won't be, no, never, never, no.


Perhaps an Andrayad.... :;):  :p

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:13 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 02 2006,17:17)
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The only problem with the theory is that it's not in the Void Dragon's style to do the insideous takeover thing. The Dragon is ?the Khorne of Necron C'tan. It is an unmatched destructive force, anathema to subtle machinations (lol a bad pun!).

Hang on, who says the Dragon is unbridled aggression? Obviously all C'Tan are keen to eat life-energy and strike against the Old Ones, but Nightbringer is the insatiable harbinger of death destructive force one, and even he's more than capable of subtle machinations.

Nightbringer is death incarnate, Outsider is raving mad. Deciever is a machiavellian manipulator. Dragon is somewhere in between as I recall - much more an obsessive master of machines - determined to make everything mechanical.

I don't have my books on me, but where did you get the idea that Dragon is like Khorne?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:45 pm 
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I recall the Dragon as being an agressive force strong enough to make the Nightbringer feel fear, unmatched amongst the C'tan.

Of course, I may be wrong.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:28 am 
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A lot of the strength of the GW background comes from the way they deliberately make many things ambiguous. Over the years they have added more and more hints about links between the Cult of the Machine Spirit and the C'tan.

Note the first quote praising the machine in the 40k Necron codex is Paulian Bantar of the Iron Hands Space Marine Chapter.  If you look at the Iron Hands mythology many argue that the great serpent that Magnus Ferrus (Primarch of the Iron Hands) wrestles with (which transfers some of its strength to him) is a C'tan force - with his hands becoming 'living metal'.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:56 am 
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Some things to note: the Dragon and the Void Dragon are NOT the same thing. The Nightbringer is the Eldar Void-Dragon. The Nightbringer is the being of ultimate destruction. Death incarnate, quite literally.

The Dragon is something else entirely which we don't entirely know what is yet (He's still sleeping). It's implied that he WAS the head of the Ad Mech during the Dark Age of Technology. That prior to the fall he was the source of the human's mastery of machinery.

Other things of note: The Omnissiah in the books is implied to be the Deciever manipulating the Ad Mech to his ends. And yes, the Necrons ARE making use of humans, go read the fluff material on the Pariahs. They're humans with the Pariah gene who have been converted into Necron servents. Essentially they're Necron-ised Culexus Assassins. Infact, they specifically talk about the Culexus being created by the Necrons in the Necron codex.

The C'tan known the best for eating his brethren is not the Nightbringer, but the Outsider. The Outsider devoured so many of them that their remnants drove him mad and forced him to flee the galaxy. No one knows where he is or what he's doing at this point as far as I'm aware. The Nightbringer was the first to consume another C'tan, but not the one who ate the largest amounts.

There are four known C'tan, each refered to separately in the Eldar's poem fortelling their resurgence. The Dragon (on mars the 'Vaul Moon'). The Nightbringer (The Lord of Death who shall Drink Deep of Isha's Eye). The Outsider (That Which Lies Outside). And The Deciever (The Jackal God).

Other things of note: It's implied that the Deciever is infact the Eldar's Laughing God, the one whom the Eldar Harlequins emulate. Who tricked the C'tan into devouring one another. There are at least some amongst the Ad Mech who DO know about the C'tan, and the one refrence we have to the Ad Mech worshiping the C'tan implies that they did it in the past and very recently began again. Beyond that we really know almost nothign about the Dragon or the Outsider.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:08 am 
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Nice summary Ilushia.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:22 am 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 03 2006,18:08)
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Nice summary Ilushia.

I agree, well done.

:D

dafrca

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-AL
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:56 am 
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It's implied that the Deciever is infact the Eldar's Laughing God

so, is the Deciever a C'tan or an Eldar God...or both?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:01 am 
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(-AL @ Aug. 03 2006,21:56)
QUOTE
It's implied that the Deciever is infact the Eldar's Laughing God

so, is the Deciever a C'tan or an Eldar God...or both?

Well... It's hard to say. Like I said, it's implied. We know that the Deciever tricked the C'tan into eating eachother and that the Eldar's Laughing God also supposedly did so. The Eldar's Laughing God is also responsible for a few other things that the Deciever appears to have been responsible for in the fluff (I'd have to go search for specific items). The best evidence seems to be that the Deciever may well be the Laughing God, and that his past exploits have been melded with the Eldar god's own abilities to create a mixed history. Akin to how legendary figures like Hercules evolved into demi-gods. Or King Arthur who's believed to actually be accredited with the things that several different english kings did as a cumulative group.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:47 am 
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They have you all fooled. They are all just fronts for the same God. Gorka!  :p

dafrca

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:44 am 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 04 2006,01:56)
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The Dragon is something else entirely which we don't entirely know what is yet (He's still sleeping). It's implied that he WAS the head of the Ad Mech during the Dark Age of Technology. That prior to the fall he was the source of the human's mastery of machinery.

Wait a minute, AdMech did not exist in the Dark Age of Technology. The superstitious cult of the machine was born in the Age of Strife when the Human civilisation was torn apart by Civil war.  ???


Other things of note: The Omnissiah in the books is implied to be the Deciever manipulating the Ad Mech to his ends.


Has this been changed as well? The Emperor is the Omnissiah according to the 2nd edition of Codex Titanicus.

Codex Titanicus (2nd edition) page 13:

On Mars the Emperor was regognised as the long-awaited Omnissiah of the cult legend. A frenzy of popular uprising swept through the entire Cult Mechanicus as word spread of his coming. When the Emperor arrived on Mars he was hailed as the Machine God incarnate and the Tech-Priests and the Techno-Magi alike came to acknowledge his leadership ad marvel at the technical secrets at his command.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:54 am 
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(Mojarn Piett @ Aug. 04 2006,06:44)
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Has this been changed as well? The Emperor is the Omnissiah according to the 2nd edition of Codex Titanicus.

Codex Titanicus (2nd edition) page 13:

On Mars the Emperor was regognised as the long-awaited Omnissiah of the cult legend. A frenzy of popular uprising swept through the entire Cult Mechanicus as word spread of his coming. When the Emperor arrived on Mars he was hailed as the Machine God incarnate and the Tech-Priests and the Techno-Magi alike came to acknowledge his leadership ad marvel at the technical secrets at his command.

??? I am immediately struck by the fact that what it actually says is something very different from what you are saying it says:

The superstitious cultists of Mars interpreted the arrival of the Emperor as the arrival of the Omnissiah.

Just as in our real world history, the Aztec people recognised Cortes as the God Quetzalcoatl returning from the East to retake his lands in 1519...


'Facts' about the background in 40k are fluid - it depends from which perspective the story is told. ?It is deliberately mixed so you get shades of truth - never the whole story, and sometimes the wrong story. Far more interesting that way, and far better suited to the setting.




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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:41 am 
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Just as in our real world history, the Aztec people recognised Cortes as the God Quetzalcoatl returning from the East to retake his lands in 1519...


1) The whole cult mechanicus is bogus and superstition. It's whatever they make up themselves. There is no machine god. There may be something pretending to be "machine god" but that's a diferent thing.

2) Based on 1) they made the "Omnissiah" part up themselves.

3) The cultists have predicted the coming of Omnissiah. Emperor comes and the cultists say he's the Omnissiah.  Based on 1) and 2) if the cultists say the Emperor is omnissiah, then he is.

Please note: Omnissiah is not machine god but his incarnation. Emperor being "omnissiah" and some necron bugbear being the "machine god" are not mutually exclusive.


Facts' about the background in 40k are fluid - it depends from which perspective the story is told.


In the 40k background "facts" are indeed fluid come from whatever is needed to justify current mini/supplement releases. Even if they contradict earlier "facts" made for previous releases which, in turn, probably contradicted even earlier "facts".  :D

EDIT: I removed a bit of text which was unneeded and probably seemed like a personal assault. Apologies to Markconz if he happened to see it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ad Mech the new Necron?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:33 am 
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The 'Void Dragon' and 'The Dragon' are indeed the same C'tan. The Nightbringer is totally seperate.

I saw the Eldar Laughing God theory convincingly debunked one time too, though I can't remember where for the moment.


As to Omnissiah, I'm afraid that's been semi-retconned, and the borders between the Emperor & the machine spirit have been blurred.

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