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Norn Queen Report #3
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:52 pm 
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I think the TK attacks on the Hierophant should only come with the Huge Claws biomorph, meaning that you'll miss out on ranged abiliity if you want TK on your bio-titan (As it was in the begining, so shall it be in the end!).




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ragnarok
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:02 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 31 2006,22:44)
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That is quite choppy, but he will die die die unless he reaches CC.

Not just FF, CC.

It's a very rare occurance against any halfway competent enemy, and when it happens, your investment should be rewarded.

I haven't played many epic games recently but i know that 40k players always shoot the big swarms first.  Heck I even tell them that my carnifex is worth 2.5 time the cost of those twenty gaunts but they still shoot the twenty gaunts (in heavy cover  :O ).  Unless you are playing a nid expet or an old nid player they (seem to) get side tracked by the humber ofwarm  bodies you have on the table.

Oh and E&C your online hours are worst than mine.  All though my work day (hee hee no managers all summer) and evening your here to reply.  Right on.  :D  :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:46 pm 
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I find that my opponents pick out my Hierophant as the first target to kill. It almost never reaches combat, and if it does, it's usually my enemies declairing an Engage, so I don't get to CC them.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:03 am 
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(Ilushia @ Jul. 31 2006,22:49)
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For the 'singling out of the node': Remember you can pick out WEs from normal Tanks. Not the other way a round. If I have a unit with 2 Shadowswords in the front and a Hydra behind them and you fire on them, you HAVE to hit the shadowswords first. The only thing is if I have something else infront of those SHTs you can pick out the SHTs from the lot. The ability to target WEs does NOT allow you to ignore them and shoot at the rest of the formation.

Actually:

3.2.1 Allocating Hits To War Engines
...
If a formation includes both war engines and non-war engine units then an attacker must state whether any attacks he makes on the formation will be directed at the war engines or the other units in the formation. Attacks directed at the war engines can only be allocated against war engines if they hit, while attacks directed at other units may not be allocated to the war engines in the formation.

One can select to fire just at the "other units", namely, the Node in this situation as long as you have a line of sight on it.  The only weapons that *have* to be allocated to WE are TK attacks.

This is one of the reasons I'd not thought the "Two Supa-Stompa/Four Landa" army was such a big deal... just kill all the Stompas!




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:44 am 
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Huh. Interesting to know... Was fairly certain that you did have to allocate to the War Engines if they were the closest things. Very interesting. Of course WEs do block LoS so getting LoS on the node might prove to be problematic itself if the Trygons drop into the right positions around it. But that's something else entirely.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:38 am 
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You'd need some special rules for that (Possible, but it'd be weird). 250 for that much melee capacity does feel a little off... Most other armies will be hard pressed to field more then 4 3+ MW in less then 300 points. A minimum-sized Chosen Terminator detachment for the Black Legion costs 260 points, gets you 4 stands with 3+ CC and 3+ MW attacks, plus a leader with an extra MW. All have RA. Aren't quite as endurant as a Hierophant and lack the option to add more weapons (like the claws) for free. If we add bonus MW attacks to their base profile I think that their cost is going to have to be re-evaluated. Since right now essentially those TK attacks come from one of their weapon-slots.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:31 am 
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Terminators have other advantages however, such as the ability to gain cover saves, or hide out of LOS etc.

A Bio-Titan in a Tyranid army is basically a big fire magnet towering over the little guys, with no chance of avoiding enemy attacks.

Most of the time mine dies before it reaches an Engagement under my own terms, and judging by people's battle reports on this site this is a pretty common occurance.

Bio-Titans are more vulnerable than any other large War Machine too, since they're rolling for critical hits right from the begining, lacking any shields or powerfields.

So basically, I think the ammount of attacks is justified, when you consider the chassis they're on.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:00 pm 
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Mini-update:


- Scythed Hierodule:
- Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.

- Barbed Hierodule:
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover


- Trygon:
- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.
- Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

- Harridan:
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.

-Vituraptor:
- 2x Bio Cannons 2x / 45cm / AP4+/AT5+ / Ignore Cover
- Spore Cannon /Template / AP5+/AA5+ /Ignore Cover
- 2x Monstrous Claws - +1EA TK (d3)



- Hierophant:
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.
Additionally, the Hierophant must select two weapons biomorphs from the Bio-Titans biomorphs list.



- Hydraphant:
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.
- Warp Blast /30cm /AP4+ AT4+ AA5+
- Bio-Plasmic Breath /Template /MW 5+ /Ignore Cover
Additionally, the Hierophant must select two weapons biomorphs from the Bio-Titans biomorphs list.




Bio-Titan weapons biomorphs:

- Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP4+/AT5+ / Ignore Cover
- Ripper Tentacles - +d3EA
- Monstrous Claws - +1EA TK (d3)
- Pyro-Acidic Spray - Template, AP5+/AT6+ Ignores Cover



Changes:

- Harridan increased to 2x MW CC attacks.
- Bio-Titan 'forelimb' biomorphs renamed to 'weapon' biomorphs.
- Scythed Hierodule given MW TK(1) attacks instead of MW attacks.
- Hierophant & Hydraphant reduced from +3MW CC attacks to +2MW TK(1) CC attacks.


Points of dispute:

- Currently only the Trygon appears to be causing large debates. Teleport or Infiltrate. How is a Teleport Trygon any more of a turn-3 game-breaker (via blitz) than Teleport Terminators? Isn't it fact weaker, due to the node's vulnerability?




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ragnarok
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:14 pm 
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I have to be quick.


Points of dispute:

- Currently only the Trygon appears to be causing large debates. Teleport or Infiltrate. How is a Teleport Trygon any more of a turn-3 game-breaker (via blitz) than Teleport Terminators? Isn't it fact weaker, due to the node's vulnerability?


Wouldn't the Trygon block line of sight being a WE?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:25 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Aug. 02 2006,15:14)
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Wouldn't the Trygon block line of sight being a WE?

Well, that would depend on positioning...

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:26 pm 
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i like the current list there. 2 EA with TK fits. They're not gonna swamp an entire formatioin to death, but whatever they hit is definitely going to feel it. I'd be frightened of trying to get too close to those things myself.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:06 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 02 2006,15:25)
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(ragnarok @ Aug. 02 2006,15:14)
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Wouldn't the Trygon block line of sight being a WE?

Well, that would depend on positioning...

Blocking LOS to a node will require quite a few Trygons, at least 3, and all your enemy has to do is make an advance move to clear up LOS again.

Basically the Node+Trygons tactic would be very vulnerable to synapse-wipeout and no serious general would try it, more than once anyway. :D

Far more vulnerable than a turn-3 Terminator teleport and that's for sure.



i like the current list there. 2 EA with TK fits. They're not gonna swamp an entire formatioin to death, but whatever they hit is definitely going to feel it. I'd be frightened of trying to get too close to those things myself.


Agreed, I think we're finding the balance of it.

Specifically, the Bio-Titans are now looking snappy without looking obscene. You can make them better at CC with tailored biomorphs, but that involves losing out on their decent ranged capability, and unless they reach an Engagement on their own terms the enemy is likely to FF them to death..




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:59 pm 
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(Hena @ Aug. 02 2006,16:48)
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I'm not sure I'd add any more weapons to hiero and hydraphant. If you do the cost must go up. So I'd rather remove the extra TK(1) attacks.

At least in the case of the Hierophant, those two extra attacks represent it's extreme strength and huge number of basic attacks in 40k. It's part of the Hierophant's basic attributes, rather than an extra weapon.

6A at S10 is definitely at least worth a few MW or TK(1) attacks.

I think a couple of basic MW / TK(1) attacks are justified for such a CC monster (It's pretty much an unmatched CC unit in 40k, happily going toe-to-toe with Greater Daemons, or mobs of dozens of infantry models).

And that's in it's standard bio-cannon configuration.


Points may have to be ajusted, but I doubt it'd be by much, Bio-Titans are still the most vulnerable Titan-class units in the whole game.




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