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Skyray and cost
Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:26 am 
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The other thing to consider is how many can show up on the field.  How many different formations (in a theoretical 'standard army') can take a Hunter, how many can take a Hydra, and how many can take a Skyray?

Also, keep in mind that SMS would appear to be dropping to AP5+

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:06 pm 
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Other thing worth noting: The Hunter is generally considered the most anemic AA weapon in the game for it's point-costs, and virtually everyone I've heard comment about it wants it to become stronger (Right now it's worse then a Hydra and costs more!) and included amongst the proposals are things like 'Increase  hit value to AA 3+'  or 'Give it 2x AA 4+' or something similar. My suggestion would be to jack the price of the Skyray to 100 points... Though I really don't think the Tau need more AA fire-power. I ALSO think AA should be taken off the Ion Cannons on their standard tanks as this gives them a rediculous level of flakk. For 500 points you can be fielding 8 60cm AA 6+ waepons which also do AP3+/AT4+ as well. That's just nasty! Now that's 2x as much as a formation of Fire Prisms which have a similar weapon... But 2 formations of fireprisms gets you 6x AA 5+ 75cm range. And lacks the secondary weapons on Hammerheads... I think Ion Cannons should loose their AA attack, it seems like there's a lot of 'AA Creep' going on. In the original lists it was ONLY the weapons specifically designed to take out aircraft which had AA capacity... It seems like more and more weapons are being given it simply because 'They fire fast and have long range' or 'they're incredibly accurate and long range'. I'd much rather have AA weapons be dedicated AA weapons... You'll never shoot down an aircraft with a tank-cannon and even a normal Ion Cannon would have serious trouble I suspect. Leave the air-killing to the air-killers and let the other units focus on their own expertise.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:19 pm 
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I posted on this on the 4.4.1 additions thread, but I agree that something is amiss with the Skyray.  Although I disagree with Alushia that flak unit should be only AA.  The original lists did NOT only have dedicated flak units - they are almost all split uses (typically AT and AA).
However, an 2xAA6+ or an increase in cost is fine.  

As for the ion cannon, this may be a fluff issue (I just don't know).  I don't have enough experience with the Tau to argue for or against its removal.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:28 pm 
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Well, what I mean is that flakk units should be flakk units. You shouldn't bolt an AA attack onto some random other unit when it doesn't deserve to be a flakk unit. Things like Firestorms and Hydras and suchlike getting ground attacks is fine. But I don't like things like Fire Prisms and Ion Cannons which don't have any real reason why they SHOULD be good against aircraft, suddenly gaining an AA attack in Epic. I don't even think the fire prism had one in the older editions of Epic either (I could be wrong) So I have NO idea why they were given one now. Likewise with the Ion Cannon. Let the units which are designed to be flakk-screens be flakk-screens. Don't just bolt AA onto something 'because it doesn't feel good enough'. Especially not something as easy to field in mass quantities as said Ion Cannon.

For the Ionheads: Why not just up their range to match the Railgun then? Make the choice 'Kills Infantry' or 'Kills Tanks'. I think that'd be fine, myself. They're both viable choices and have reasons to take both of them.
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:34 am 
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The ion cannon has a shorter range, lower strength (lower AT value), and comparable AP value (3 shots vs a large blast marker).  Why would I take an Ion cannon that's the same price as a railgun, when an Ion Cannon is notably not equal to a Railgun?  The AA attack makes it worth taking.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:53 am 
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I understand the rational from a 'make them equal-value' standpoint. I just don't like it from the 'Every formation in my army is under a 4x 6+ and 2x 5+ AA dome with a 60cm range' and it's very easy to place them so this dome-effect overlaps and any aircraft trying to reach either formation has to fly through 8x 6+ and 4x 5+ shots against them. You could up it to 12x 6+ too, if you went with pure Ionheads (I'd go with 4x Ionheads and 2x Swordfish myself).

I'm not saying it is by necessity over-powered or unbalanced. I just don't like it and I think there's a lot of 'AA-creep' going on along with the Aircraft-Creep. It seems to be that the forces with the best interceptors and best bombers ALSO have the best AA weapons as well. Which seems rather silly. It's just not something I like. I'm not someone who's designing the list, nor am I someone who's ever actually played against/with it. So I can't comment on how powerful they are on the field beyond statistical analysis, but it clashes with what feels right to me. And no I don't have any real idea how to make them more reasonable in terms of fire-power. So I'm not going to push it very hard.
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:48 am 
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Notably, the Ion Cannon is very cheap in 40k, even though it's my preferred Hammerhead weapon because of it's stats (2 dead marines a turn?  yes please!).

Honestly, I'd consider limiting the number of Ionheads that you could take.  4x Ionheads and 2x Swordfish is a waste of assets, though.  You take a huge hit in AT abilities for an average AA bubble.  Ionheads are much more useful 1-2 per formation, with a Skyray attached if you really want the AA cover.

I'd also like to point out that there is a discussion about Hunters right now.  One of the discussion points is whether to drop the point cost (to 50).  Another is to limit how many formations can take a Hunter, and how many Hunters can be taken per formation.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:59 am 
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It almost certainly is a waste, but it's what I was looking at. Not from a 'Kills aircraft' but from a 'kills infantry and tanks quite nicely' standpoint. With that I'd get 6x 3+ AP at 60cm range. Or 4x AT 4+ and 2x AT 2+ shots at 60cm. I'd rather have the heavier AP fire-power since against most armies I'm likely to need more AP shots then AT shots I've found. But this is all beside the point.

For the Skyray. I don't think it's that over-powered... I'd drop it back to 60cm and leave it at that. For 75 points that's quite nice AA power. Range like a Hunter and AA power like a Hydra. Armor save is better then either so the 50% point-hike isn't a bad deal.

Yeesh I can't do math... Looking at it again it'd be 6x Ionheads and 2x Swordfish in a standard detachment for me (I like big tank formations. I dunno why...)
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:11 am 
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Maybe it's not the Skyray that needs its cost adjusted. Maybe it's the other older units need their's reduced. It has been mentioned previously that the hunter(and a proportion of the SM list for that matter) is incorrectly costed. Personally, I think that if AA became cheaper there would be more of it and aircraft rules wouldn't need the changes being proposed.
Charging 100 points for the Skyray is just silly. You're saying that it's the same as a Land Raider(which also needs a price reduction!)
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:30 am 
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(Hena @ Jul. 31 2006,06:32)
QUOTE

Even if hunter is tweaked, it is still worse.

Umm if it's cheaper how can it be worse? It's either worse at the same points or it's not and cheaper....

1. Drop move to 30.
2. Drop armour to 5+.
3. Drop Hunter Missiles range to 45cm (or 60 at least).
And if the hunter gets a point reduction what then? Will you still ask for these changes for the Skyray?

I could stomach no.1
No.2 is pushing the limit given it's supposed to be a quasi MBT in the new Codex
No.3 pfft!  ???

Don't forget Hena the Skyray operates in a Tau army NOT a SM army. Are you taking into account that the Hunter also benefits from TSKNF? That's a points cost right there.

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