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Norn Queen Report #3
Chroma
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:00 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 29 2006,22:59)
QUOTE
Hierodule is Uncommon, just like trygon?

Doh, I was thinking Hierophant... *laugh*

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:05 pm 
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I think that it's not a good move to try to follow the weapon rules for titans from 40k. Titans are not part of the 40k rules, but a bolted-on thing. Because 40k doesn't have the proper upper weapon size. Take demolisher cannon for example, S10 AP2 (big blast). That's in epic AP3+/AT4+, ignore cover. So your justification of S10 AP3 -> MW5+ isn't very convincing. I don't think that the bio cannon needs to be MW necessarily.


Aye fair do's, I wouldn't be adverse to a downgrade in this area, but 40k can be used as a strong guideline, especially in the types of weapons available.

And I also want to have my breath weapons. Those don't need very special modelling, as long as they have heads.

I am 100% against this.

Breath weapons of this magnitude on these Bio-Titans have no justification in the background. No artwork, no discriptions, etc.  


You have missed hydraphant from the list?

I'm only dealing with trying to tie the current 'cannon' Bio-Titans. Hydraphants & Vituraptors will also need some work, but I think sorting the cannon Bio-Titans should come first, and then their larger sisters can be balanced against them.

I wouldn't be adverse to seeing the the Template breath weapons given to the Hydraphant & Vituraptor incidentally, as we basically have free reign with them.

Why the invulnerable on hierophant?

Because it has an invulnerable save in 40k. And it's cool.

Also, not all the tyranid weapons should be ignore cover. So some of that should be removed.

Semi-agreed. Many of the Tyranid weapons are non-solid/kinetic in nature, and ignore cover works well with that imho.

All CC attacks by bio titan are MW? The idea is good. However I feel that there is too much MW around there again.

Yes. The 40k Bio Titans have massive ammounts of Ignore-Armour Save S10/S8 attacks. If that's not MW I don't know what is.

And yeah, it's Tyranid Bio-Titans in close combat... that's where they should have Macro Weapon attacks.

But I'll wait and see what Jaldon has in mind for the beasts. But if you don't mind I'm not supporting 'remove all template weapons' crusade :D. However if everyone disagrees with me... I can accept that :;):.

I only want the Templates removed from the cannon beasties to bring them into line with the background. For the bigger, badder Bio-Titans, I would support them, since they're not in contradiction with established fluff.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:13 pm 
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Mini-update:


- Scythed Hierodule:
  - Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
  - Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.

- Barbed Hierodule:
  - Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
  - Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.

- Hierophant:
  - Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.
  - 2x Bio Cannons / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
  - Lash Whips (The first CC Macro-Weapon hit against the Hierophant in a combat is discarded.)
  - Invulnerable Save


- Trygon:
  - Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.
  - Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
  - Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

- Harridan:
  - Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
  - Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.



Bio-Cannon MW attacks are gone. Any other opines?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:26 pm 
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New Background can be created.


Like I said, Hydraphant, Vituraptor. That's us creating new background. :)

There was a reason why Orc Warlord does not have Invulnerable Save. This was to prevent Gargant from getting it. In that light I wouldn't try to add one in 'nid counterparts.

Consider how horribly vulnerable the Hierodule is at range in Epic. Mine dies almost every time out on the battlefield because people know that keeping their distance and pounding away at the guy is how you deal with him.

Note: I've been testing my Hierodule without the breath weapon in my games. Without the template, she does almost no damage at range, and getting into CC is a challenge. I suggest that an invulnerable save is a worthy consideration when you're leaving out the Template. I'm aimenable to suggestion here however.

Perhaps 1/2? Would be more acceptable.

Not enough imho. An assault move represents a whole game of 40k, personally I don't see the number of cc MW attacks as being unresonable.

Their ranged abilities have been rightly neutered. Note TK is gone from their CC attacks (Leave that for the larger bio-titans).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:26 pm 
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I'd go the route of the Greater Daemons, Avatar, Carnifex, Space Marine commanders, Orks in Mega Armor... Well you get the idea. Add this to their stat line:

"Humongous Talons/CC/Assault Weapons/EA+2, MW."

You now have a set of MW attacks on them without replacing their basic attacks the same way as virtually every other individual unit which has that kind of capacity. Dreadnoughts are S10 and have 2 attacks, get just 1 MW attack. Carnifexes can likewise be S10 and get D6+1 attacks (+3 on the charge!) and get just 1 MW attack in Epic. So something which is S10 and has 5 attacks isn't unreasonable at EA +2 or EA +3 MW. But giving them SIX MW attacks is a bit much IMHO since that doesn't take up any of their other weapon-slots (Comparatively the Titan Chain Fist on the AMTL list takes up a weapon-mount and gives 6 MW shots. I wouldn't be opposed to allowing such an upgrade as a replacement for a weapon on the titans either.)
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:33 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Jul. 29 2006,23:26)
QUOTE
I'd go the route of the Greater Daemons, Avatar, Carnifex, Space Marine commanders, Orks in Mega Armor... Well you get the idea. Add this to their stat line:

"Humongous Talons/CC/Assault Weapons/EA+2, MW."

You now have a set of MW attacks on them without replacing their basic attacks the same way as virtually every other individual unit which has that kind of capacity. Dreadnoughts are S10 and have 2 attacks, get just 1 MW attack. Carnifexes can likewise be S10 and get D6+1 attacks (+3 on the charge!) and get just 1 MW attack in Epic. So something which is S10 and has 5 attacks isn't unreasonable at EA +2 or EA +3 MW. But giving them SIX MW attacks is a bit much IMHO since that doesn't take up any of their other weapon-slots (Comparatively the Titan Chain Fist on the AMTL list takes up a weapon-mount and gives 6 MW shots. I wouldn't be opposed to allowing such an upgrade as a replacement for a weapon on the titans either.)

Apologies, but I was under the impression that the standard attacks (Those deriving from the WE ability to grant multiple 'base' attacks) lacked the MW status?


Thus I was envisioning, for example, a Hierphant with 3 basic attacks & 4 MW attacks in CC, or just 3 attacks in FF.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:46 pm 
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That is indeed correct. But does a Hierodule really DESERVE 4 MW attacks? An entire stand of Terminators, 5 guys with power fists, would get 15 S8 attacks in 40K. The hierodule, by comparison, gets 4 S10 attacks as a Scythed or 2 S8 as a barbed. I wouldn't put that above maybe 2 MW attacks, certainly not 4. Even compared to a Dreadnought they're only as good as about 2 dreads are. Or about 1.5 Wraithlords. Etc. Someone commented about all melee attacks on bio-titans being MW. Which isn't right IMHO. Things like Greater Daemons, Eldar Avatar, Eldar Wraithlords and Dreadnoughts have at least as much claim to such an idea as a Scythed Hierodule does at present. In any case, my suggestion would be to give them a reasonable, 2-3, number of MW attacks for the smaller titans. And maybe 1-2 TK attacks for the larger ones.
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:57 pm 
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the biotitans and bio superheavies don't derseve that many extra attacks.

I've fielded a Trygon in 40K for the past week for the medusa campaign.

It can deep striking into combat and has 6 S8 attacks & D3 S4 attacks.  Yet it isn't able to kill more than two or three units before it is killed itself.

It could be because I have been fighting marines but small arms shread gigantium creatures.  The trygon has the same survival as a close combat fex, and the fex is easier to hide.

However I do think that infiltrator is fitting for the trygon.  It is a beast in 40K (19 to 24 inche charge  :O )  and can deepstrike into combat.  However I think it should be DC2.

Oh and I think the regeneration should cover the Heirophants 5+ warp field save.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:32 am 
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The problem with reducing the number of MW attacks in CC is, it seems to me, that it basically makes the Bio-Titans worthless.

I could maybe see +1 and +3 MW attacks for the two types of extra attack abilities, but any lower and the Bio-Titans are never going to be worth their points cost, imho.



Yet it (The Trygon) isn't able to kill more than two or three units before it is killed itself.


4 MW attacks, 2.4 MW hits. That's two-three units killed in an engagement, and the Trygon will most likely die too if the opposition is any good.

Sounds about right doesn't it?

Anyways, maybe +3MW CC attacks might be more suited, but any lower is too low, imo.




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ragnarok
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:56 am 
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I still say 1 or 2 MW attacks plus the 2 or 3 normal attacks.  should be a few dead units and makes it stuggle against tanks.  I've failed to even glance a vindicator side armour once, though the Trygon was also fighting a dread and a dozen termies at the time.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:06 am 
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(ragnarok @ Jul. 30 2006,00:56)
QUOTE
I still say 1 or 2 MW attacks plus the 2 or 3 normal attacks.  should be a few dead units and makes it stuggle against tanks.  I've failed to even glance a vindicator side armour once, though the Trygon was also fighting a dread and a dozen termies at the time.

Your poor luck has led you to underestimate the pure pimpness that is an engraged Trygon.  :D



Mini update:


- Scythed Hierodule:
 - Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
 - Huge Scything Talons: +3 MW CC attacks.

- Barbed Hierodule:
 - Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
 - Scything Talons: +1 MW CC attacks.

- Hierophant:
 - Huge Scything Talons: +3 MW CC attacks.
 - 2x Bio Cannons / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
 - Lash Whips (The first CC Macro-Weapon hit against the Hierophant in a combat is discarded.)


- Trygon:
 - Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.
 - Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
 - Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

- Harridan:
 - Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
 - Scything Talons: +1 MW CC attacks.


How's that looking? I've changed the attacks into 1,2&3 extra attacks, rather than 2/4. I fear any lower will be completely underpowered. Invulnerable save is gone from Hierophant.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:15 am 
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Note: TK is currently gone from the 'cannon' Titans I'm working on here, I feel that TK abilities (Massive Claws or the like) should come with alternate weapon fits, or on the Hydraphant & Vituraptor.




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