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Fire Warriors

Tactica

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:34 pm

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(Hena @ Jul. 26 2006,15:24)

QUOTE

My +25 was limited to one unit in the formation, not all.

Hena,

as noted, a points review would be in order. +25 for the formation vs. each unit is a reasonable value to consider in my opinion.

'wave'

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Rob

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Tactica

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:19 pm

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Lion & Hena,

It is what it is... we are here to make the list the best we can and accurate as we can while keeping it as fun and as true to established franchise core design as we can.

SMS has impacts. We know that, but what must be done - must be done in devleopment. So...

ISSUE 1 - adding SMS to DF:
I'm thouroughly convinced (as I know others are) that DF should have SMS in E:A. Its just what it is - its how the unit is used now. As Lion stated, we cannot ignore the way they are fielded in 40K as its the basis of development in E:A for a long time now.

ISSUE 2 - addition of SMS to DF yields points review:
This addition *MAY* require the formation with DF to be slightly increased, playtesting must ensue for balance. It also may not be noticable enough to affect points on *SOME* units.

Example: may increase cost of PF, may not really affect FW as they were a bit over priced by some measures

ISSUE 3 - SMS stat line in E:A, regardless of unit:
Value of SMS in E:A is in question as it compares with other default weapon values.

Assault Cannon has AP5+/AT5+ in E:A
-- It's 3 shots hitting on 3+ at S6 with rending in 40K

SMS is currently AP4+ Ignore Cover in E:A
-- It's 4 shots hitting on 3+ typically at S5 with ignore cover saves and doesn't need LOS to target in 40K

In E:A - Ignore Cover deals with the 40K LOS and save bonus. The higher rate of fire of the SMS deals with the Strenght of weapon difference. The Rending of the Asault cannon and higher strength justify it affecting AT targets while the SMS does not.

I cannot find justification for the AP4+ on the SMS... I agree with the both of you. SMS should indeed be AP5+.

For issue 2, I would be an advocate for trying SMS = AP5+ Ignore Cover on the SMS.

Afterall, Missile Pods are AP4+, and that is S7 and much more accurate reflection.

ISSUE 4 - SMS stat reduction yields unit points review:
SMS reduction to AP5+ instead of AP4+ *MAY* require a points review of the affected units after the reduction.

This may make some units cheaper.

'wave'

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Honda

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:25 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

For issue 2, I would be an advocate for trying SMS = AP5+ Ignore Cover on the SMS.

Afterall, Missile Pods are AP4+, and that is S7 and much more accurate reflection.

I would support the SMS as AP5+

ISSUE 4 - SMS stat reduction yields unit points review:
SMS reduction to AP5+ instead of AP4+ *MAY* require a points review of the affected units after the reduction.

I would suggest that we leave costs as is (assuming AP5+) because of the overall impact to the other vehicles that will also be impacted by this change.

For instance, by dropping SMS to AP5+ Ignore Cover, all Hammerhead versions are affected, Skyrays are affected, and Scorpionfish/Dragonfish are affected. So for a minor increase in DF's for FW and PF's, we lose shots on all those other units.

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Tactica

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:36 pm

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Honda,

I agree with your suggestion.

1) Apply change of adding SMS to all DF.
2) Lower all SMS to AP5+, Ignore Cover
3) Test Changes for a time
4) Review points on the various units with SMS as necessary AFTER putting the changes to test.

I also agree that from a list overall, the net increase to DF is coupled with a net decrease to several other units in the list.

Thanks for weighing in.

'wave'

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:40 pm

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That reduction to other units concerns me, Tactica. Everything else works pretty well, and downgrading the SMS will have repercussions across the list. Adjusting the points is fine, but the unit costs still need to end in 25, 50, or 75; so that the list continues to work correctly.

We should reduce SMS to AP5+ for Devilfish, Stingrays, and Skyrays, possibly leave them AP4+ on the Scorpfish (by making them twin-linked); but I disagree with Ignore Cover, they should be Indirect Fire, based on the way they work in 40k. You still get a cover save against them in 40k, but I don't need to be able to see you in order to shoot SMS at you. I tell the missiles, "There's bad guys on the other side of the ridgeline, go get 'em," and the missiles take care of all the rest. Just have a note like the Thudd Gun that says Smart Missiles ignore the usual minimum range for Indirect Fire (or just give them the special rule from 40k: No LOS required).

For that matter, I think the Submunition missiles should also be Indirect Fire.

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Honda

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:31 pm

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I'd strongly suggest that we stay away from the "Indirect Fire" rule as it would disable any other weapons attached to the platform.

Keep in mind that IF requires that you roll to pass and that you may not move and fire. That is not what I think you are after reading your earlier notes.

I think that although Ignore Cover doesn't exactly model how the missiles behave in 40K, it is a lot closer than Indirect Fire.

My two yen...

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

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Tactica

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:46 pm

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Agree with Honda Lion, he said it just as well as I could.

Its an old conversation and a logical conclusion previously releached regarding SMS.

'wave'

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:46 am

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I must have missed that conversation. Then again, I came in to Epic Armageddon somewhere around Tau v3.

AP5+ Ignore Cover has my vote, too then, with a review of all SMS platforms in order to assess point changes to them. Personally, I think we can leave the Scorpfish (and Dragonfish) at AP4+, by changing the weapon statline to twin-linked Smart Missiles, but the Devilfish, Stingrays, and Skyrays need to have their point costs re-examined.

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Tactica

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:55 pm

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CS?

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nealhunt

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:17 pm

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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

"What people play in 40K" is only one consideration when designing unit stats. Unit/formation abilities have to take into account the fact that there will be at least a few units with each of the different upgrades in combat at some point.

The stats should be a balance between what the background says is most common, what is commonly fielded in 40K, and everything else is available. That order is also roughly the weight those factors should be given. And, of course, play balance overrides everything.

SMs don't have twice the firepower of IG simply because of their min-max 40K composition. That is a common and understandable misperception based on the way the unit data sheets are set up. The difference does take that into consideration but the disparity also includes the fact that a Marine with equivalent weaponry is much more deadly than the most highly trained IG grunt. It is not strictly a literal 1 Missile Launcher for every 5 marines versus 1 autocannon for 10 IG even though that is what the datasheets say.

Another good example of 40K v background tradeoff in Epic stats is the Eldar Exarchs. In 40K you rarely see a squad without them, so you have one exarch for every 5-10 Aspects, but the background says they are rare. In Epic you can have a maximum of 1 per 20 Aspects, which is a fraction of what you see in 40K as a compromise with the background material.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:35 pm

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Neal, you're absolutely correct, but either JJ's design notes on the Marines or a comment he made on the forums (I don't remember where I saw it now) state that he based the Marine squads on what he saw at tournaments. 5-6 man min-maxed Tac Squads (for max Heavy/Special weapons) and 8-10 man Dev Squads (for max 'ablative wounds').

Looking at IA3 (which was written between the 40k v3 Tau Codex and the Tau Empire Codex, with a draft of C:TE present while it was being written) gives us a picture of how the Tau fight on the Grand Tactical scale. I will grant that the Historical re-fight scenarios in IA3 don't have the Devilfish armed with SMS (I just looked), but that's how I see them being used. Every Tau player I've played against has had doubts about the SMS being worth it's points until it's been seen in action. After that, they always include SMS on their Devilfish, sacrificing Fire Warriors and Wargear to make points for them. The only time I haven't seen someone field a Devilfish with SMS is when he didn't have a way to represent it on the model.

Does it raise the effectiveness of mech FW? Oh, yes.

Hena: I thought I'd compare a Wave Serpent to an SMS Devilfish.
Wave Serpent
AV, 35cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 4+ff
Twin Shuriken Cannon: 30cm AP4+
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Skimmer, Transport (May transport one Wraithguard or any two of the following units: Autarch, Farseer, Guardian, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders).

Proposed Devilfish Troop Carrier with SMS
AV, 30cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 6+ff
Burst Cannon: 15cm AP5+
Smart Missile System: 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
Seeker Missiles: 75cm AT6+ Guided Missiles
Notes: Skimmer, Transport (may carry two of the following units: Fire Warriors, Pathfinders)

The Wave Serpent's 4+ff largely comes from the twinlinked shuriken catapults, which are not mentioned in the statline, but are on the 40k model (as well as the 40k model of the Falcon, which also has a 4+FF). Now, the Tau's FF has been dropped by at least one pip, and replaced with a shooting attack (the 15cm AP5+ of a burst cannon, in the case of a Devilfish), and the SMS will be a 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover. Now do you see why I compare a Devilfish to a Wave Serpent?

I do find it interesting that the Wave Serpent has the lightest possible armament (in 40k) in it's Epic incarnation, when I usually see them with Brightlances or Starcannon in 40k.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:00 pm

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Lion: You're right that JJ said something to that effect about marines multiple times. I'm just saying that wasn't the only consideration. He also wrote many units with simply the basic, non-upgrade stats regardless of what is seen in 40K - the Wave Serpents you mentioned, Chimeras, etc..

I don't have a dog in this fight and I'm not claiming Devilfish should or shouldn't have SMS. I honestly don't know. I was just skimming the thread and saw statements similar to yours repeated multiple times and felt that another view might be useful.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Fire Warriors

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:37 am

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Neal: Fair enough.

Hena: I'm comparing the SMS to the twinlinked shuricats (30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover versus 30cm AP4+). The 15cm AP5+ from the Burst Cannon is icing on the cake. If you are aggressive enough to get close enough to get that 15cm shot, more power to you. Generally, I don't plan on getting that close without getting assaulted.

You're right, most vehicles don't show a lot of upgrades in Epic. Most vehicles also don't have an upgrade that improves their ability to the same extent as the SMS. Most Imperial Vehicle Upgrades would add +1 to the FF ability (like the Stormbolter or Heavy Stubber), barring the HK missile, or maybe add one to the armor save (extra armor or Power of the Machine Spirit). Eldar upgrades add to the tricksiness of the vehicle, generally not adding anything to it's firepower (barring the swap of twinlinked shuriken catapults for a single Shuriken Cannon). Most Ork upgrades would only add FF attacks (bolt-on big shootas), or possibly change the vehicle type from LV to AV.

How about we push the 2x 30cm AP5+ on Fire Warriors for 4.4.1, then try the Devilfish SMS upgrade for 4.4.2? (Also, Wave Serpents are 50 points each, so I believe that SMSfish would be appropriately pointed at 50 points each)

I think we all agree on the Fire Warrior upgrade, and I'd like to separate the issues a bit.

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