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Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
baronpiero
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:00 pm 
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So:
6 units + leader = 150 points (contingent)
3 units = 75 points (upgrade)


I would try the contingent at 150 pts if the strain leader had leader + markerlight.

But I would never select the upgrade. Drones/heavy drones/stealthsuits seem plain better all the way cost-wise and vespid don't bring anything new tactically speaking.

The biggest problem is: Vespid cannot flee from assaults and are not exceptionnaly good at it. Even worse than firewarriors in fact, which is false. This tends to make them quite crappy in comparison amongst other things. Since we don't want FF 4+ for them, I thought we could give them skimmer to represent them as 'natural flyers'. So they won't flee but wouldn't be necessarily toasted in assaults...

...or just give them Tau jetpacks equivelent, just meaning they would fight according to Tau tactics. This would fit their background ???

And I would also be tempted to bring armor 5+ back if we don't upgun their weapons.
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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:55 am 
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I would try the contingent at 150 pts if the strain leader had leader + markerlight.


Option is not allowed per core design. The Vespids couldn't effectively fire the weapon.

They are constantly on the move and use wings to activate their own weaponry which Tau facilitate by delivering an engineered chassis for the Vespids choice of firing crystals mined from their home worlds.

Vespids don't have the ability to take ML in core deisgn. This would be an unnecessary divergence from the core design IMHO.

I would like to see us stick to solving problems with a formation/unit without violating the fictional history/established franchise - if we don't 'need' too.

+ + +

All that said, I'm with you in spirit.

I don't see this formation fitting into *my* E:A Tau army at 150 points. Not only can the most devius amongst us appearently figure out a way to break the formation, the power gamers have no appearent interest in trying. Says something about the value of this formation to me.

At 175, I just have better options. Frankly, for 150 - I still may have better options. I'll have to test and see. Never know - I might get pleasently suprised by the E:A fast moving, short ranged, AP firing, minimal armor Vespid.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:05 am 
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Ablative shields for Crisis? Nah drones work better.

One of the problems with expanding the Tau list is that its massive. Adding new stuff in is tricky as their is more replication of roles.

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baronpiero
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:36 pm 
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In fact the markerlight wouldn't be given to the strain leader but to the strain director, an upper Vespid commander which isn't described in 40K core design to my knowlegde (I finally got my codex in english version ^ ^). So we wouldn't actually contradict core design, but rather extend it. That's why I saw this as a real possibility.

However, is it the good solution? I start to think it's not a good idea to give them an ability a lot of other troop types already have. On the contrary, we need to differenciate them.


To sum-up the two main problems as I see them:

- Cost per unit shouldn't be too low from background perspective. Unlike other auxiliaries vespid have a real value to the Tau general and shouldn't be considered a cheap expandable troop type like kroots, drones or humans. Ideally, I would like them to cost 25 pts per unit. Same as Firewarriors to represent them as a worthwhile elite amongst auxiliaries, considered equals because they are in tune with the Tau'va concept. Wether this is voluntarily or not we don't know, but the result is Vespid represent the perfect auxiliary: does a good job, doesn't question... thank you communion helm.
So we should increase their abilities, rather than reducing their cost.

- As their background suggest, they should fit a niche role valued by Tau commanders. The 40K codex tells us they excell at negociating difficult terrain at speed. Then couldn't we make them good at urban fighting, or any dense terrain for that matter?
Maybe you gess what I have in mind... Let's have a look at the neutron blaster once more: such a weapon can bypass most intervening material. Additionally, the rate of fire certainly is equal to the vespid's wing motion frequency. So what we have is a weapon which can bypass most intervening terrain and doesn't require much aim. Much like automatic weapons as described in inquisitor, all you have to do is pull the trigger and let the weapon do the job (poor reverse translation here). Then what if massed neutron blaster would just ignore cover?


Here's a try of a 25pts Vespid with such weaponry:

Vespid
M 35cm CC 6+ FF 5+ Ar 6+

Neutron Blaster: 15cm AP4+ ignore cover
and small arms ignore cover

Notes: Tau jetpacks.


proposed Vespid /Firewarrior pros & cons

Vespid is 35cm move (Major)
Vespid ignore cover (Major)
Vespid have tau jetpacks (minor)

Firewarriors have markerlights (Major)
Firewarriors have more range on half of weapony (minor)
Firewarriors have disrupt on half of weaponry (minor)
Firewarriors have better armor (minor)


This would certainly make them have a purpose. Thoughts?
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:08 pm 
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Just a quick note that I am avoiding comparrisons to Fire Warriors right now, since I am not convinced that these guys are set in stone right now. At this stage in the development of the Vespids, it is my intention to get something that fits their background and role. If there is overlap, this can be adjusted at a later stage.

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bloodman
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:08 am 
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this thread seems old but why not add infiltrate and/or scout?

with these the could work as a mobile reserve for counter charges in a cadre or as a fast moving assault force as an independant formation

i would also from there entry in the Tau codex. remove there ranged attack and have a FF of 3 or 4 instead

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bloodman
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:51 am 
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Thought about it for a little longer and rewent over my tau codex.

Personally i see them as fuffilling a role simalar to rough riders as an independant formation and like ogyrns in cadres.

I would see them as an upgrade for battlesuits rather than fire warriors mainly getting that from there entry on page 16. Where it is stated that they are deployed as a mobile reserve alongside large numbers of crisis suits(ie upgrade) or in tandem with pathfinders as a scouting force(ie independant formation)

sorry if this has been suggested before i have not read all 10 pages in this thread

EDIT:yes i dont know how to spell

EDIT of my EDIT:why such a low CC value i would raise it to 5+ because they do have WS 3 I5 which is substainally better than guardsmen




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vanvlak
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:57 am 
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They should also have massive hiveships, used as dropships, scattering troops of Stingwings were needed... er.. and then my Vespid Dropship model would be justified....? All I'd need would be a Tau army with Stingwing models...  :p

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bloodman
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:56 pm 
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couldnt you use gargoles as proxies?

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:35 pm 
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I'd use the Swooping Hawk Exarchs, actually.  Those are closest to the appearance of the 40k Vespid.  The Hawks just have better looking helmets!

The upgrade should not have a leader, while the Mission Group (Contingent) would.  Vespids are a touch better than Marines in HtH in 40k.  While the Tau don't do CC themselves, they do assign Kroot to the task.  Vespids could also fill that role.

Here's my take:

Vespids
INF 35cm 5+sv 4+CC 5+FF
Neutron Blaster 15cm 2xAP5+ and
Small Arms Extra Attack +1
Notes:  Jump Infantry.

This gives them 2x 5+ attacks in shooting or FF, and capable of CC in a pinch (Ok, capable of going toe-to-toe with Tac Marines).  This would make them excellent 'escorts' for Crisis suits.  Crisis+Vespid formation moves up.  Enemy assaults, Crisis fall back to FF range, leaving Vespid in CC (or short FF).  Vespid stand up and CC/FF as appropriate, Crisis suits provide MW FF support.  Result:  Nasty.

While this does violate the Tau 40k-to-Epic conversion standard, Vespids were created in 40k to give the Tau a nasty 'engagement' unit (that is, close in through the woods, shoot, and then club the @#$% out of the survivors), that is somewhat out of character for the rest of the army.  My unit would do just that.

I don't remember any Universal Special Rules that affect difficult/dangerous terrain in E:A, but it's been a looooooong time since I've played.  If there are any, the Vespid should get it.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:31 pm 
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Happy to test whatever you guys settle on here as long as it has CS's blessing to vision.

Vespids in E:A are a wired anomoly for the Tau. Their effectiveness should be in FF on paper, but so should a lot of things in Tau.

That violates the principles of the E:A design, but then again this is a aux unit, so perhaps its at least worth looking at the options.

So far in their many hypothetical iterations, I struggle with their value on the E:A battlefield.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:22 pm 
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Bloodman hit the nail on the head.  Vespid are similar to Rough Riders or Ogryn.  They either operate independently, moving fast to take objectives/opponents by surprise, or operate with the Cadre as short-ranged FF/CC reinforcements.

They are almost a Swooping Hawk with a Fire Dragon's gun.   They are used in a manner similar to Crisis Suits, but they are faster, more capable of moving through difficult terrain, and significantly less expensive.  Points-wise, I'm torn between Vespids and Stealth Suits.  10 Vespids is about the same points (in 40k) as 6 Stealth suits, and the vespids last longer, have a higher leadership, and will kill more power-armored troops on average.  It's when you're facing Guard, Orks, or Bugs that Stealth Suits are more useful.

They are lightly armored.  Bolters kill them dead.

They fight pretty well against Tactical Marines in CC.  The Marines win because of their toughness and armor.

After I watched a game with Vespids in it last night, I've got a better idea of what stats Vespids should have.

Vespid Stingwings
Infantry, 35cm, 6+sv, 5+cc, 5+ff
Neutron Blaster:  15cm 2x AP5+ AND (Small Arms) Extra Attack +1
Notes:  Jump Packs

Vespids should be really close to AP4+, as 10 Vespid will kill 4 Marines (except termies or Plague Marines) outright on the averages, and 5 of anything else.  The challenge is how to write that ability in E:A terms.  MW attacks are out of the question, but could we apply Lance to the Neutron Blaster?  Lance denies a normal armor save, right?

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:27 pm 
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I don't think we can leverage LANCE (eldar special rule) as one of our own without creating a rule like it and then adopting it.

The problem there is LANCE should be a USR, not eldar specific.

So, unless we want to create special rules for one unit (not a big fan of that) I think we have to work off of something closer to what you noted.

Good suggested starting unit type though. Makes sense.

'wave'

Rob

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:55 am 
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Damnation.  They really should be MW attacks, then.  But MW in E:A is supposed to be things like Meltaguns.  I guess I'll have to settle for more dice.  2x AP5+ attacks and 2x 5+FF attacks will have to do.  I can't justify 2x 4+ attacks.

The problem is that the Vespid are a very 'non-Tau' unit.  They really should be best at 15cm range or less.  (Engage actions, essentially).  It's pretty hard to write them for E:A so that they work similarly to how they work in 40k.  

Does anyone have a problem with this statline:

Vespid Stingwings
Infantry, 35cm, 6+sv, 5+cc, 5+ff
Neutron Blaster:  15cm 2x AP5+ AND (Small Arms) Extra Attack +1
Notes:  Jump Packs

? ? ?

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