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Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
Tastyfish
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:10 am 
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If the armoured cadre also allowed an additional support option to be taken (possibly even a second armoured cadre), then the numbers of things would stay the same.

I understand the role of the armoured cadre, but I didn't think it was to allow a Tau player to use only tanks in their force (it was these sort of forces that tended to unbalance lists anyway). I don't really think that requiring at least one conventional cadre before then filling out on just tanks is that restrictive - the quote that started the whole thing off even says an armoured unit is actually equal devilfish and hammerheads. In our case they have just been split up.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:38 am 
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I'd like to see Armored Hunter Cadres stay their own unit... While it is possible to make an all-tank list, the Tau also have virtually no RA Tanks. The only RA vehicles they get are all Super Heavy. While it WILL give them a lot of fire-power, isn't that the whole point? The formation is still rather flimsy (6 models with 4+ saves and no ATSKNF or similar mitigator to blast-markers, falls apart fairly fast under heavy fire). I personally agree that armored cadres should remain, the Tau strike me as a force which relies very heavily on their specific commander. While they do form up groups and practice, refine and direct their combat forces very very well, ultimately force-composition depends on the leader of the forces.

As far as balance: I don't see an all-tank force being all that unbalanced most of the time. It'll be very expensive and probably not have terribly many activations usually. Artillery, and Assaults, can really take such forces apart very quickly.
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Xisor
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:19 pm 
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For now, I'm sitting stationary at the 'Just a cosmetic change' perspective(having changed from my original place).

That is:

Cadres become 'something'(Cadre Core, essentially, but can be more flowery)
Contingents become *Not* contingents (something else, Cadre Support, Focus, Specialisation?)
Army becomes 'Contingent'

Makes sense, in a manner of speaking. Since the army is designed for GT at 2000-5000pts, it is safe to assume that '3-6' Cadres of some form will be nominally present. It's safe to call the army a Contingent.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:22 pm 
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Also I think it remains we need the infantry defined against one another so there is a reason to take firewarriors beyond a sacrifical one.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:12 pm 
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I dunno, Chris. While it may be possible to balance them out so they are good at such things, I'm wondering if people will actually use them that way or not. It might go against Tau tactical doctrine to play sacrificial lambs to do damage.. But a lot of players will still do it because it's an effective tactic. And I don't see many ways to make it a non-effective tactic really.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Oh people will still do it - its to give the formation a viable alernative in the 'optimised battleplan' that the GT lists are about.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:08 pm 
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I'd say remove Human Aux from the list, myself. That'll make Fire Warriors more de-facto Garrison force. And up them to 2x AP 5+ 30cm. Remove Sniper from Pathfinders altogether, railguns are not sniper weapons just very nice AP/AT weapons which cause pinning(Disrupt). That makes your Fire Warriors your primary anti-personal forces and good for forward-garrison if you leave the Devilfish at home.
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Nerroth
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:54 am 
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Rather than lose the Human Aux, make them 0-1 per formation of Fire Warriors?


Gary

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:04 am 
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Quote (Nerroth @ 10 June 2006 (07:54))
Rather than lose the Human Aux, make them 0-1 per formation of Fire Warriors?


Gary

An interesting prospect. But I doubt it'd really improve the choices much. 300 points for Fire Warriors with Devilfish, then 250 more for a 19 base Human Aux unit? I'll still willingly pay 550 to garrison the Human Aux forward and play sacrificial spawn with the Fire Warriors to give me a forward marker-light beacon, and fire power.

The basic trouble is: Fire Warriors are supposed to be the main bone-structure of the army, which the suits and tanks add to. With the Human Aux there you've got access to cheap, massive, infantry formations. Which are very very cost-effective in Tau armies.

It's not that I don't LIKE the Human Aux in the list (it's neat, flavorful, and cool) It's just that as long as they're there I can't see the Fire Warriors being a good choice for garrisoning or for filling out AP roles. 18 units with AP 6+ is generally better then 8 with AP 5+. It can sustain more casualties without breaking, it can potentially do much more damage. They firefight just as well as Tau Fire Warriors do and have vastly larger numbers. They only lose out in two places: Armor save (They get none, Tau get 5+) and mobility (Fire Warriors can take Devilfish which they can't.) So you still run into the issue that the Gue'vesa can fill the same roles as Fire Warriors, in general, and usually do it BETTER then Firewarriors do for basically the same price.
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Nerroth
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:45 pm 
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To be honest, the way I see it the Gue'vesa are doing the garrison duty because they are good at doing precisely what Tau Cares can't - or, at least, not without sacrificing mobility.


I'd much rather keep Fire Warriors linked with Devilfish and use the humans as 'non-expendable-honest' troops.

Fire Warriors (if we give them 2 Pulse Rifle shots at 30cm - which I like!) can ride on Devilfish, take a range of additonal Tau unit types and be turned into a fast, mobile base from which one can shoot up all sorts of enemy formations.

How many shots do Gue'vesa get?


Gary

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:07 am 
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By the Unholy Power of the Internet, I command this thread to live AGAIN! [cue maniacal laughter]

Ahem.  Sorry, was that my outside voice?

I have a suggestion for the renaming:  Call the current Contingents 'Mission Groups'.  While it's not quite the same as the 'Mission Group' from C:TE, it is very close conceptually, at least to me.  Cadres would remain Cadres, since a Cadre plus upgrades comes pretty close to being a 40k force (albeit the 40k force may be more diverse).  A 'tournament' 2700-3000 point army would easily be 3-6 Cadres, and therefore a Contingent.  Larger battles would therefore be 'Battles'!

Nerroth, to answer your question:
Gue'vesa
Infantry, 15cm, -sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Lasguns:  (15cm) Small Arms
Pulse Blasters:  30cm AP6+

Gue'vesa'vre
Infantry, 15cm, 6+sv, 6+cc, 4+ff
Pulse Rifles: 30cm AP5+
Notes: Leader

They come in a company of 12, plus an additional command stand.
This gives the company 12x AP6 and one AP5+@30cm, with 12x FF5+ and one FF4+.

(current) FW
Infantry, 15cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Pulse Carbines: 15cm, AP5+ Disrupt
Pulse Rifles:  30cm, AP5+
Notes: Markerlights

A current FW cadre is 8 stands, giving them 8xAP5+@30cm, another 8xAP5+Disrupt@15cm, and Markerlights, with 8xFF5+.  

(proposed) FW
Infantry, 15cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Pulse Rifles: 30cm 2x AP5+
Notes: Markerlights

The proposed FW Cadre (with 8 stands) would have 16xAP5+@30cm and Markerlights, with 8xFF5+.  

Current Devilfish would have 4xAP4+@15cm, with 4xFF6+.

The proposed SMS Devilfish would have 4xAP4+@30cm and 4xAP5+@15cm, with 4x FF6+.  (Hmmm... there may be a change indicated in the FF stat of the SMS'Fish).

This proposed change would make FW much more of a Stormtrooper/Panzergrenadier/Mechanized Infantry fighter than the Human Aux, largely in keeping with the way that FW are used in 40k.  While it could be possible to write stats such that Mech FW did not have Markerlights (further in keeping with how Mech FW are used in 40k) and Garrison FW did have Markerlights, I do not feel that this would be desirable, as Mech FW should have some AT capability inherent to them (since the 'dumb' Seeker missile is a simplification for ease of play, compared to how seekers actually operate by fluff).  Even Panzergrenadiers had a Panzerfaust or two with them in the 'track, and did not depend on the Panzers to kill other tanks.

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