Points for weapons. |
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons.  Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:28 pm |
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Using a set of mathematical formulas, I've transferred the points costs of the Titans Hull and Weapons costs from NetEpic over to Epic Armageddon.
I chose NetEpic to work off of because after so many years of testing, hopefully their weapons points costs are balanced.
All I did was build a 'standard' Epic Armageddon configuration Warhound, Reaver and Warlord titan in NetEpic, work out the price differential between NetEpic and EpicArmageddon, then modify all relevant NetEpic prices by that differential. The result being that the weapon costings were accurately transferred from NetEpic to Epic Armageddon.
So, at a first glance, do these titan configuration costs look remotely balanced for use with Imperial Armies?
First the Warhound Titan:
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 52.08
Plasma Blast Gun - 67.7
Inferno Gun - 52.08
Turbo Laser - 78.125
Rocket Launcher - 52.08
Warhound Hull - 130.2
Ajusted to make them sensible integers, that'd give:
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 50
Plasma Blast Gun - 70
Inferno Gun - 50
Turbo Laser - 80
Rocket Launcher - 50
Warhound Hull - 130
Next, the Reaver:
Reaver Hull Cost - 390
Volcano Cannon - 130
Gatling Blaster - 78
Rocket Launchr - 65
Turbo Laser Destructor - 97.5
Inferno Gun - 65
Melta Cannon - 65
Plasma Cannon - 130
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 65
Chainfist - 32.5
Corvus Assult Pod - 195
Las Burner - 13
Power Fist - 19.5
Wrecker - 32.5
Barrage Missile - 130
Plasma Destructor - 162.5
Quake Cannon - 110.5
Vortex Missile - 195
Transferred to sensible integers that gives:
Reaver Hull Cost - 390
Volcano Cannon - 130
Gatling Blaster - 80
Rocket Launchr - 60
Turbo Laser Destructor - 100
Inferno Gun - 60
Melta Cannon - 60
Plasma Cannon - 130
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 60
Chainfist - 30
Corvus Assult Pod - 200
Las Burner - 15
Power Fist - 20
Wrecker - 30
Barrage Missile - 130
Plasma Destructor - 160
Quake Cannon - 110
Vortex Missile - 200
Finally, the Warlord:
Warlord Hull Cost- 524.69
Volcano Cannon 104.94
Gatling Blaster 62.96
Rocket Launcher - 52.47
Turbo Laser Destructor - 78.7
Inferno Gun - 52.47
Melta Cannon - 52.47
Plasma Cannon - 104.94
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 52.47
Chainfist - 26.23
Corvus Assault Pod - 157.41
Las Burner - 10.49
Power Fist - 15.74
Wrecker - 26.23
Barrage Missile - 104.94
Plasma Destructor - 131.17
Quake Cannon - 89.19
Vortex Missle - 157.41
Again, transferred to integers this gives:
Warlord Hull Cost- 525
Volcano Cannon 105
Gatling Blaster 60
Rocket Launcher - 50
Turbo Laser Destructor - 80
Inferno Gun - 50
Melta Cannon - 50
Plasma Cannon - 105
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 50
Chainfist - 25
Corvus Assault Pod - 160
Las Burner - 10
Power Fist - 15
Wrecker - 25
Barrage Missile - 105
Plasma Destructor - 130
Quake Cannon - 90
Vortex Missle - 160
Well, what do you think?
Note that in all cases, building a 'standard' configuration Titan (of whatever class) will total the same as a Titan taken from the Epic Armageddon Rulebook.
This set of points costs merely adds the costs of the other weapons available to a particular titan class, relative to the basic configuration.
Also note that a weapon will have a different price when fitted to a different class of Titan, this is a balancing mechanism that resulted from the conversion method used.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:37 pm |
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Example Warhound 1 :
Warhound Hull - 130
Plasma Blast Gun - 50
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 70
Total - 250
Example Warhound 2 :
Warhound Hull - 130
Inferno Gun - 50
Turbo Laser - 80
Total - 260
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The_Real_Chris
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:54 pm |
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I can see lots of abusive combos on the warlord and reaver, eg two quake cannon reaver and similar stuff.
You can use it as a starting point but would most likely have to test lots of them.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:09 pm |
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Well you can make a double quake cannon reaver that squeaks in at 625 points (two quake cannons and a lasburner) rather than the standard 650, but is that abusive or just a rather inflexible titan?
I think under most circumstances a 'standard' pattern Reaver is actually going to be more effective?
But that's what a points-based system allows, customizing your Titan to face certain opponents, and yes perhaps filling a gap in your army list. The drawback is that you'll generally end up with an inflexible titan that will suffer from 'eggs all in one basket' syndrome... that's how I remember the old Epic system as working anyway.
A Triple Plasma Destructor varient Reaver (870 points)... now there's scary... but you pay through the nose for such a beast.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:28 pm |
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Incidentally there are also points for some of the other Titan upgrades, such as the Devotional Bell and the Corvus Assault Head (Which currently takes up a weapon slot due to the 3/4 slot restriction imposed by the fixed points limits).
Initially I avoided them, just focused on the weapons... I'll have a go at converting the non-weapon options in a while.
EDIT: I won't do any points for weapons or items which have no stats developed for the AMTL list, as there's no point without stats to tie the points to!
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:13 pm |
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Here we go, converted points for a few upgrades:
Reaver:
Corvus Assault Head - 200 (No longer takes up a weapon slot)
Carapace Landing Pad - 60
Warlord:
Devotional Bell - 50 (Takes two Carapace Slots)
Corvus Assault Head - 160 (No longer takes up a weapon slot)
Carapace Landing Pad - 50
The remaining head varients appear to operate differently to the Epic Armageddon counterparts so I havn't converted the costs, and they're all in the collector's section of the list anyway.
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:53 pm |
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| Quote (Evil and Chaos @ 06 June 2006 (13:28)) | | EDIT: I won't do any points for weapons or items which have no stats developed for the AMTL list, as there's no point without stats to tie the points to! |
If you're feeling really ambitious, you could create stats for weapons that appear in NetEpic, but not in E:A. 
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:14 pm |
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There's ambitious, and there's driving a hover-car before I've learned to crawl...
I'll be happy if I can work out and test some balanced points for things that are already in the list. Once it appears that balance has been achieved, maybe then it'll be worth considering other (Sacred!) relics.
PS: Sacred relics would no longer be free, but always paid for, though they may still take up a weapons slot if it was desired...
Once I have a full workable set, I'll codify it all and try a few playtest games?
I'd welcome feedback on the proposed costs from other people's playtest games too if there's support for it?
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:26 am |
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I was always for separate weapons costs and basic titan chassis.
I really appreciate yur work and like it 
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:19 pm |
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Now, I'm a quite a bit ignorant when it comes to NetEpic, but what you've done seems to be oversimplified. Do the weapons have the same abilities in NetEpic as they do in E:A? Do the same type of mechanics exist in NetEpic as in E:A (specifically, are there MWs or are there save modifiers).
It seems to me like you're comparing apples to oranges.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:47 pm |
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All the weapons I've converted are based on a common ancestry. They apparently operate in a manner roughly analogous to their Epic:A counterparts... thus the points costs should be roughly in the correct ballpark... but that's why this is a test list.
I have the points converted and as a baseline, they should be balanced (Build a standard config Warlord, it comes out at the correct points value).
What I'm looking for at the moment are the glaring errors, what weapons are obviously overcosted? What looks undercosted? What combination of weapons is stupidly cheap in points yet also stupidly effective?
This is only stage 1.
Stage 1 - Convert points costs.
Stage 2 - Identify and change imbalances in the list.
Stage 3 - Playtest changes.
Stage 4 - Is the list now balanced? If not, goto 2.
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clausewitz
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:01 pm |
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AS TRC mentioned this method leads to people min/maxing all too easily.
e.g.
Warlord Titan, 2x Melta Cannon, 2x Las Burner = 645 points.
18 FF attacks, DC8, Void Shields etc etc. Easily have 3 of them in 2700 points.
The idea of points costs for weapons has been discussed several times in the development of AMTL, but every time you hit the same problem. It encourages the worst kind of min/maxing.
Its also very hard to quantify the value of weapons, as they have different values depending on the rest of your list and on the list you are facing.
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baronpiero
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:03 pm |
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I don't know how relevant taking Netepic costs is, but the idea is interesting and the result somewhat reflect what I expected.
Warhound titan: here you seem to hit the shelves. I see very little adjustement needed.
Reaver titan: Not bad either. The cost of the most common weapons I know well seem correct. Just one thing for the moment: I find the Mars pattern reaver a bit lacking at 650 pts. So the main tweak would be to try out Mars config at 600 pts, hence have the chassis alone cost 340 pts.
That way, a reaver titan with the other warlord-like standard config (Rhyza pattern isn't it?) would cost:
Reaver (340) + Volcano cannon (130) + Turbolaser (100) + Gatling Blaster (80) = 650 pts sound fair ins't?
Warlord ?Titan: your calculation caused a descrepancy between reaver and warlord weapon costs. I would therefore suggest a bit of streamlining by applying reaver or warlord weapon costs to both. Since the reaver weapon costs are consistent as compared to the smaller scout titan weapons, I would rather suggest applying the reaver's to the warlord. ->To keep cost consistant, it will be necessary to recost the warlord chassis:
850 (mars pattern warlord)
- 130 (reaver volc cannon)
- 2*100 (reaver turbolaser)
- 80 (reaver gatling blaster)
= 440 pts if the reaver weapons costs are used
Finally, one last thing I would do near the end would be to have everything costed in multiple of 25 points if feasible.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:23 pm |
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| Quote (clausewitz @ 07 June 2006 (15:01)) | AS TRC mentioned this method leads to people min/maxing all too easily.
e.g.
Warlord Titan, 2x Melta Cannon, 2x Las Burner = 645 points.
18 FF attacks, DC8, Void Shields etc etc. Easily have 3 of them in 2700 points.
The idea of points costs for weapons has been discussed several times in the development of AMTL, but every time you hit the same problem. It encourages the worst kind of min/maxing.
Its also very hard to quantify the value of weapons, as they have different values depending on the rest of your list and on the list you are facing. |
Min / Maxing is a fact of life, but if you min/max too much, you end up with an inflexible list that gets cut to ribbons... for example, you'd let you get into Assault range with only those crazy CC config Warlords?
Sure you'd be supreme in CC, but noone would let you fight on your terms.
At least that's my naieve theory.
And if you wanted a ranged max/max titan list, you'd probably have about 3 activations.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Points for weapons. Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:49 pm |
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"Warhound titan: here you seem to hit the shelves. I see very little adjustement needed." |
Yes, I think they're spot-on, at least as compared to the current 250 point Warhound. The beauty of my conversion system is if it's decided that a standard Warhound should cost 275 pts, it's now about 2 minutes work to build a balanced new set of points for the new points cost.
Reaver titan: Not bad either. The cost of the most common weapons I know well seem correct. Just one thing for the moment: I find the Mars pattern reaver a bit lacking at 650 pts. So the main tweak would be to try out Mars config at 600 pts, hence have the chassis alone cost 340 pts. |
Is there a consensus that the Epic:A config Reaver's points cost should be dropped by 50 points?
Warlord Titan: your calculation caused a descrepancy between reaver and warlord weapon costs.
Aye, the Warlord is relatively more expensive in NetEpic as compared to the Reaver, this results in different weapon prices if you want to keep consistancy with NetEpic's balance. Using the Reaver's weapons costs will generally result in a different cost for the Warlord overall.
Examples:
4 x Vortex Missiles Warlord - 1165 pts
4 x Vortex Missiles Warlord*** - 1240 pts
4 x Lasburner Warlord - 565 pts
4 x Lasburner Warlord*** - 500 pts
*** Using a 440pt hull and Reaver's weapons costs.
My conversion method ensures that the weapons costs are balanced against only the titan class they've been converted for. If I was to use the same weapons costs for both 'heavy' classes of titan, I'd need to apply a different ratio on the actual conversion, changing the cost of the Warlord on the other side of the equation, as it were.
Finally, one last thing I would do near the end would be to have everything costed in multiple of 25 points if feasible.
Not feasable IMHO, weapons balance is too subtle a thing to put into 25 point dividers, and plus it forces you to think more carefully about your weapons selection. Everything in 25pt increments makes the list too 'plug'n'play' and too easy to customize.
