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Fire Warriors

 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:34 am 
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Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 01 June 2006 (04:48))
I don't think that's off topic - it's a very useful summary for people like me who haven't played 40k since Rogue Trader. ?I've got Codex: Tau Empire but the unit and weapon profiles don't mean all that much to me. ?How do you know how far people can move if they haven't got an 'M' stat? ???

Orde

Col_Sp,

ROFLMAO - I remember the M days.

As far as current WH40K 4th Ed is concerned, main book says all Infantry (defined term in 40K) move 6" by default at player option in the movement phase. In addition and after the shooting phase, each unit again at player option may further charge another 6" if in range of the enemy. So a net total potential of 12" in a given turn assuming the charge.

Jump Inantry (another defined 40K term) move 12" in the movment phase and can charge 6" in the charge phase after shooting. These cats are anyone with jump packs, wings, thrusters, orky storm boyz, Tau jet packs, Eldar swooping hawks, Vespids... etc.

Jet Pack and Jump Pack are special versions of Jump Infantry that further have special rules in 40K.

Bikes are another kind of INFANTRY in 40K. Think Jet bikes of the Eldar or space marine bikes - (not Tau Tetras or space mairne landspeeders - those are vehicles) Anyway, Bikes are a very special kind of infantry. These guys may turbo boost 24" in a turn, but forgo any option to fire or charge. However, when they do turbo-boost OMG are they hard to kill... their regular armor save becomes and unmodifiable Invulnerable save of the same armor save number! So if you had a 3+ armor save, when you turbo boost, it becomes a 3+ invulnerable save for the turn! They may also opt to simply move 12" and charge 12" instead - but no invulnerable armor save this way.

Then we have Cavalry - think IG rough riders. These guys can move 6" and charge 12".

Moving on, there's Monstrous Infantry. They move 6" and charge 6" unless they have wings or some kind of daemonic speed making them some kind of other infantry (Jump Infantry or Cavalry that is)

anyway - that was a long way to describe the missing "M" from days of old. Hope it helped. :)

cheers,

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:44 am 
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Quote (Hena @ 01 June 2006 (10:56))
I'd rather not see the fishes getting SMS. They should be transports. With SMS they can be battle tanks.

Err?

Hena - I'm sorry, and I mean no offense to you personally - but this statement might be the most suprising/unbelievable thing I've read in this thread. :alien:

Since when does SMS (a 30cm AP only gun in E:A) make a 5+ armored vehicle "a battle tank?"

Hah - joking of course... but you play an army of devilfish with SMS, Seekers and burst cannons... I'll play and equal point army of Falcons, HH, Leman's and Predators thank you very much.

Wonder who wins 9 out of 10 games.

LMAO! :p

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:46 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 01 June 2006 (09:49))
Devilfish getting an firepower boost is a problem - currently they are a nice 25 points. You can't up that easily (the game mostly working in 25 point increments) so that means any increase in effectiveness would have to go into the base formation cost.

TRC,

If you lose the gun drones and replace them with SMS on the DF while maintaining the burst cannon, what is the net difference in value?

Is that a bad thing to a FW unit that's already lacking?

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:04 am 
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Quote (Xisor @ 01 June 2006 (12:10))

I'm still not convinced that MLs on all Firewarriors is the way to go,

Guess CS will give us a vision on this one at some point. Jervis seemed to be pretty clear with his recomendation of having ML on all FW stands though - since it was his original suggestion.

One thing's for sure - Tau Empires only gave more reason to take ML on firewarriors and also allows them to now take more. If there ever IS a justification to support Jervis' recomendation for the FW to have ML, its now.

Since public argument's for and against FW ML have merit and validity, this has definitely become a CS and Jervis decision at this point one way or the other though.

With there vision clearly stated, we can all move on.

and feel that still having the 'massive' infantry formations is the Tau way to go either.

In core design - Tau do have massive infantry available to them. However, they are not forced to take any kind of an all infantry force.

The only thing Tau are "FORCED" to take in core design is 1 commander (shas'o or shas'el)

AND

one unit of Firewarriors.

+ + +

Furthermore, all here in E:A land should be mindful that core design refers to the following as "INFANTRY"...

Shas'o
Shas'el
Ethereal
Firewarriors
Pathfinders
Kroot
Krootox
Kroot Hounds
Human Aux
Vespids
Gun Drones
Marker Drones
Shield Drones
Sniper Drones
Heavy Gun Drones
XV15 Stealth Battlesuit Teams
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Teams
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Teams
Sniper Gun Drone Teams

The only thing in the Tau Empires Codex that is NOT considered infantry is:

SkyRay Missile Defence Gunship
Hammerhead Gunship
Piranha Light Skimmer
Transport: Devilfish





As an aside...any further thoughts on changing Human Auxilliaries

PF are one thing in this thread as FW and PF share the DF Transport and are impacted by changes to it.

I think its safe to say that Human Aux is pretty far off topic in this thread, so i'll refrain from responding here in hopes that we can keep this thread on topic - that is, FW formation in E:A and CS's original requests for help.

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:22 am 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 28 May 2006 (08:17))

OK. This is something that has been on my mind for a while now. It appears that many players are simply taking these guys to get at the upgrades and contingents that they allow access to. To me, this just doesnt seem correct.

I appreciate the perspective and share the feeling, as previously noted.

In addition, I must admit that I am not entirely convinced that the stats accurately represent the squads in the game.

Also agreed.

So, I would like to canvas opinions on three issues:

How do Tau Fire Warriors operate in the 40K background? What kind of role do they play in the force, what are their strengths and weaknesses, etc.

Your question sites background, not 40K rules. I admire that as there is a lot of chatter here on 40K rules instead of directly addressing this particular question - i.e. fictional 40K history.

Without citing pages of literature here, I think the Tau Codex, circa 2001, page 13, "THE ART OF WAR" may be what you are after as it sums things up nicely under a few headers. However, it talks about Tau in general, not Fire Warrior Teams - which I think is more to the point of your question.

The Tau Codex often refers to Fire Warriors and their doctrines of battle, but when they are talking about Fire Warriors, the book often uses this to generally describe anything raning from a Fire Caste Memeber whom may be a Shas'la, Shas'ui, Shas'vre, Shas'el, or a Shas'o. He may also be in standard armor, stealth armor, crisis armor, or broadside armor... so quoting text that simply references what the Fire Caste Fire Warrior does is also going to miss the mark I believe you to be after.

Page 26 of the Tau Codex, circa 2001 specifically under TROOPS, 1+ Fire Warrior Team in the italics describing the unit may be just what you are after. I'll quote and let you figure it out from there... note that Tau FW TEAMS are different than a general referenct to Tau FW member of the Fire Caste.

Fire Warrior Teams are everpresent in Tau armies and are formed from members of the same sept. They are cautious but efficient, and their pulse rifle armament gives them excellent firepower. Often mounted in a Devilfish troop carrier, they are able to rapidly deploy and lay down a withering fusilade upon their foes.

In the back of the book where it references how a Hunter Cadre (single 40K force) operates in battle, they show a good mix of units supporting at most one or two units of Fire Warrior Teams.

Even on the inside cover of this codex, the largest 40K army displayed in this codex only contains 2 FW team units:

Ion-Head
Rail-Head
FWTeam 1 with DF
FWTeam 2 with DF
PFTeam with DF
Comander in Crisis 1
Commander in Crisis 2
Crisis Team 1
Crisis Team 2
Broadside Team
Stealth Team
Kroot Carinvore Squad 1
Kroot Carnivore Squad 2
Drone Squadron
Ethereal 1
Ethereal 2

Finally, the old codex offer's a look at actual 40k army battle tactics as they pertain to Paitent Hunter and Killing Blow styles of warefare.

Kauyon (Patient Huner): The Tau army is at its best when engaging the enemy at long range. Tau tactics are therefore focused on getting the enemy in clear view so that the Tau shooting can be decisive. The Kauyon method does this by using a lure to tempt the enemy forward. In this photo a Tau army has set up to perform a Kauyon using the Stealth team as the lure.

In this photo with the Stealth, the FW Team is deployed off to the side by a DF. There's a bubble box stating the following, Fire Warriors form a line which can be reinforced by the reserve if required. The Devilfish is placed for quick embarkation if needed.

Next...

Mont'ka (Killing Blow): It is not always necessary to wait for the enemy to rush into your gunsights to apply firepower. Mont'ka is about swiftly deploying your firepower so that a portion of the enemy army is quickly overwhelmed. this photo shows a Tau army set up to execute the Mont'ka with their mobile troops while using the Kroot squad and Broadside team to suppor them when they act.

Interestingly here, the main plan is a Tau shift right and converge on on portion of the enemy with Kroot leading the advance. The tau are positioned for Tau left field with a DF behind them. The arrow for their movement further has them moving away and flanking from the main Tau push. There's a bubble box stating the following about the the Fire Warrior Team, The Fire Warriors will manoeuvre to put the enemy in doubt about the overall plan.

Its important to note here that the Firewarrior Team was not the key element in either tactical analysis. They performed support or diversionary tactics.

+ + + Now, moving on to the new Tau Empires Codex, circa 2006 + + +

There are numerous color photos of armies, but even here, we never see more than 2 units of Fire Warrior Teams in these pages.

On page 36, the exact same fictional history text is used for the 40K TROOP choice of Fire Warrior Team in the new Empires codex which I already quoted above.

Page 22 of the new Tau Empires Codex does give us a bit more insite into what a Fire Warrior Team looks like.

TEAM (TAU: LA'RUA)
The smallest unit; equivalent to a single squad or section in the Imperial Guard. The most common type is the Fire Warrior team, consisting of six to twelve Fire Warriors and normally led by an experienced leader called a Shas'ui.

A Fire Warrior team normally has a transport vehicle, in the form of a Devilfish troop carrier assigned to it, allowing it to operate as mechanised infantry. Often however, the transport will be left at a secured base of operations or aboard a transport vessel, with the team operating as light infantry.

Other types of unit are also organised into (often smaller) teams, including ad hoc units, equivalent to the Imperium's kill-teams, consisting of mission-specific specialists of all types. Such teams are referred to as Mission Groups, and are commanded from the far higher level of Coalition.


The new book further goes into details on pages 12 and 13 about the Mont'ka - Killing Blow and the Kauyon - Patient Hunter tau tactics. However, they do not afford us a pictorial example of in game practice like we find in the old codex. On the other hand, they speak more broadly now, identify divergences as it pertains to a given world, academy, and/or shas'O or Shas'el master the principles are taught by. The scale of practice is broadened significantly in the Tau Empires codex as well.... read for yourself:

ORGANISATION
Tau are organised in teams of warriors originating from the same sept, often bound by a Ta'lissera. These teams are grouped into an all-arms combat force known as Hunter Cadre under the leadership of a Commander
(note: that's shas'el or shas'o in 40K). In many cases an Ethereal will accompany the force, and the balance of the teams will be selected for the particular hunt to be undertaken.

TACTICAL PHILOSOPHY
The two most common forms of Hunter Cadre are the Mont'ka and Kauyon. Each method is taught by the great Fire caste academies on each Fire caste world and have their own adherents amongst the Shas'O and Shas'el masters. They are both based on hunting techniques. Broadly speaking, there are two approaches to hunting: the first involves bringing the prey to the hunter, the second involves the hunter running the prey to ground.; the former is Kauyoun, the latter Mont'ka.

Mont'ka - Killing Blow
Roughly translated, Mont'ka is the Killing Blow. It is the art of identifying a target of opportunity and attacking it switftly with a Hunter Cadre, often deployed from a Manta missile destroyer. A Cadre pursuing the Mont'ka may stand in readiness for several days awaiting the command to strike. During this time they will plan the exact movements they will perform when the call comes. Often the decision to strike will come from a Shas'el or Shas'o with a good view of the enemy or the input of a well-sited Pathfinder team.

It is firmly believed that the bond of trust between the Cadre that conducts the Mont'ka and the Commander who orders it brings honor to both. The attack will be immediately called off if the prey remains resilient or evasive.

Kauyon - Patient Hunter
In the Tau language the words for hunter and patience are derived from the same root. This technique is the oldest of the Tau techniques and has the most variations. Essentially the technique relies on the interaction of the hunter and the lure. In recent times, auxillary troops such as Kroot are used as the lure, although some septs still regard the role as one that honours both hunter and prety and allow only bonded Fire Warrior Teams to undertake it.
(note: FWTeams being used as lure in this verbose example)

The lure's role is to expose itself to the prey and draw it into a position where it can be killed by the hunter. The more subtle Commanders have been known to use the absence of troops as a lure. Once the prey is in position, the lure is free to escape or help the hunter as the situation dictates. Hunters are frequently equipped with Crisis, Stealth or Broadside armour with weapons carefully selected for the particular prey.

Finally on these pages 12 and 13, the Tau Empires Codex talks about the tau SIEGE concept and their BATTLE plans as it pertains to large scale battles. The Tau are clearly a precision army with detailed if not time intricated planning and elitist style of execution and contingency planning for all scenerios.

BATTLE
As the Tau empire expands, the need to fight large-scale engagements has caused the purist Fire caste approach to be questioned and, at the suggestion of the Ethereal caste, large numbers of auxiliaries ahve been incorporated into the Tau military, the most common being the mercenary Kroot and the insectoid Vespid.

The Kroot in particular are used to maintain a battle line around which the highly mobile Tau Hunter Cadres operate. The change has allowed the Tau to fight wars on a large scale where previously they would have been limited to raids.

Tau battle plans are very complex as each Hunter Cadre is assigned specific targets, locations and times. teams are briefed at length beforehand and simulations are widely employed. Teh Tau may start a battle with elaborate flowing attacks, each launched with perfect planning, but sooner or later their prepared scenarios cease to apply and they lose momentum. When this occurs, they will disengage and plan anew.

It is important to note that the Tau regard territorial gain as militarily irrelevant compared to the destruction of enemy forces. Ground is for position from which to make the kill; once the kill is made, the ground is for the taking. A Tau army will gladly retreat from a strong enemy attack to preserve Tau lives while it awaits its opportunity to strike back decisively.


I just really love this next part...

Tau attribute no dishonour to prudent retreate and see last stands as a lack of imagination or the last refuge of an incompetent commander. Unlike the Imperium of Man, the Tau empire cannot draw on limitless manpower, so the strategy of attrition is unkonwn to them.

The Fire caste is capable of battle rage and there have been occasions where the death of an especially beloved Ethereal has enraged an army beyond endurance. This does not result in them rushing into hand-tohand combat. Instead they advance steadily while pouring an unceasing volume of fire into the enemy. Such an attack will only be halted by the expenditure of all ammunition.


OK... that's about all the fiction I can stand to type up.

CS, hopefully you can find some value in there and hopefully I've hit the mark as it pertains to your first question.

Cheers,




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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:04 am 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 28 May 2006 (08:17))
How do Fire Warriors work in 40K? Does 40K accurately portray these guys. Where does it get it right, where is it wrong, and what is the typical armament and operation of them in the game?

CS,

I feel the 40K ruleset does a great job at accurately portraying Fire Warrior TEAMS.

First, the pulse rifle has a longer range than any other list's standard issue weaponry. They typical seen is either 12" or 24" with rapid fire. Tau Fire Warrior Teams employ a 30" range gun forcing enemy infantry to come to them.

Second, Tau Pulse Rifle technology is Strength 5 as well as rapid fire (2 shots at 12" range and is a move and fire weapon!) So the Tau can just stand and pelt the enemy with weaponry delivering higher payloads than the Marine Storm bolter's explosive rounds - and if they don't want to stand afar, they can move in 6" and fire 12" range with 2 shots per MODEL to deliver an amazing amount of high strength standard issue damage! With a skimming DF, the Tau can be bussed up 12", deployed 2" away, they have a 1" base, and they can further fire another 12" to target with 2 shots each. That's a net of two Strength 5 shots from 27" range in a single 40K turn... PER MODEL! In 40K, Strength 4 weapons have a chance of hurting light armored vehicles but Strength 5 weapons can actually hurt transports as well as light vehicles in the front and side armors. The Tau mechanized nature, high rate of fire and Strength 5 weaponry means a savvy general will have no qualms about moving to an enemy flank or rear and taking out all but the largest of armor and firing at its rear with a torrent of S5 toting Fire Warrior Teams or gun drones.

Fire Warrior Teams also have armor that's stronger than an Imperial Guardsmen but still one point below a marine armor save. That makes them more durable than a guardsmen.

Fire Warrior Teams are also CHEAP by 40K standards. A single FWT member with S 5, 30" range, rapid firing pulse rifle and 4+ armor is 10 points.

To put this in perspective, a single IG infantry trooper with a Strength 3, 24" range, rapid fire lasgun and armor 5+ in 40K is 6 points each. IG also have to take minimum of 24 guys as a single infantry choice PLUS they have to take a command of 4 guys. The same IG Troop choice can further bolster their ranks by adding in another 30 guys to the same single troop choice if they desire it (though it rarely occurs). To be fair, the IG Troop choice operates as 3 individual units - a command of 5 models and two independent units of 10 men.

In 40K, Tau Fire Warrior Teams can be 6-men strong or up to 12 men strong with up to 2 more gun drones. The 6-14 model unit performs as a single entity on the field in 40K.

To bring this full circle, in 40K, Tau get more shots and more effective shots on better armored infantry - for the same points. That contributes to their use on the field, their chance at being a "lure" for the army.

Now, this is all before you factor in that a Fire Warrior Team can have up to 3 ML in the single unit. Not to mention - what that unit can do for you on the field of battle in 40K if you give them a Transport with burst cannon, Seeker missle, and SMS in place of the gun drones!

Firewarriors are the very cheap alternative to Pathfinders in 40K, but what the Pathfinders do - they do exceptioanlly well. Not only do PF's tout sniping rail rifles and the Scout abilty to always deploy regardless of mission and have an option to deploy well ahead of the rest of the Tau force, but they also pack more ML than any other unit can carry in a 40K army. This huge allotment of ML and load of special rules contributes to differentiating the PFTeams from the FWTeams and not to mention that PFTeams don't have access to the massive shots for next to no cost that the FW's can deliver - the FWTeams are just a points effective bargin like no other in 40K. Both Team types do have access to the same Transport options with SMS, Seeker, and burst cannon + other wargear upgrades though.

Further differentiating them, the PFTeam has no option to NOT field a DF, the FWTeams have the option to take a DF, but are not forced to.

Finally...

PFTeams can field in 4-8 man teams with up to 3 rail rifles and 5 ML with pulse carbines. They can further add 2 ML drones for a total size of 10 models max.

The FWTeam is a minimum of 6 models strong and can have any mix of pulse carbines and/or pulse rifles. Furthermore, one can have a ML and they can add 2 ML drones for a total of 14 models in the unit.

+ + + typical armorment + + +

Historically, i would have said 6-man squads, only take the minimum required 1 unit and take another if you didn't have another troop choice option so that you satisfied your minimum of having two troops. Build the rest of your army and if you had points left over - continue to fill out your list with 6-man disposable FW squads.

This philosophy continues to work in Tau Empires. Its very VERY points efficient.

What the new codex brings to the table is the New ML rules and the SMS on the DF.

First, ML used to be a joke. It was a gimmick that was fun to toss in, but it was very inefficient so top players did not even bother with ML. 40K deisigners fixed this fundamental flaw in Tau Empires.

A Tau general is not required to take ML in his army, however, every Tau raced infantry can now have a ML by either carrying it, networked ML on some peice of gear they can have, or in the form of a drone controller wargear and two ML drones. That option didn't previously exist. That alone didn't change the 40K Tau game though.

The ML rules got way WAY better. In summary, instead of a single ML shot effecting a single friendly weapon on a single model, now a single mark will enhance the hit probability of an entire friendly unit! That was a huge change. Furthermore, the ML unit can have stacked effects. If marked twice, you can confer a double to hit modifier to a friendly unit. Furthermore, you can further stack ML hits to remove any cover save the opponent might have, you can make their Ld test become worse, you can use ML for night fighting, you can also use them to make sure a friendly unit fires at the intended target by allowing them to auto pass a target priority test (to see if the firing unit shoots where the general wants them too). So the ML rules themselves have provided a new option to the 40K Tau Fire Warrior Team.

Instead of being cost effective filler - they now have a new utility, and still at a very cost effective price in 40K terms.

The Devilfish has also become more of a firing platform that can support the FW unit. Previously, you didn't really want to sync points into the DF as it had limited firing capability and really had to get up close and personal to do anything. Now, with SMS and seeker outfitting - the DF doesn't require LOF! So I can move up behind a wood, dump my cost effective infantry into cover for them to fire out of while further protecting them - and support them with SMS and Seeker missiles without the DF every being seen!! If need be, the FWTeam can pile back into the DF for rapid escape! PERFECT!

So, from my persepctive - 40K got the FWTeam very right in the latest Tau Empires codex.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:06 am 
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Quote (Hena @ 01 June 2006 (22:43))
Quite. How about I use devilfishes and you use hellhounds. I seem to win then 10 / 10, which means exactly what.

Uhh... hellhounds are not battle tanks either...  They are fast attack choices for Imperial Guard...



???

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:12 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 02 June 2006 (02:44))
Since when does SMS (a 30cm AP only gun in E:A) make a 5+ armored vehicle "a battle tank?"

When you are an Ork :)
SMS, GW and burst cannon - not bad for a light tank.

If you lose the gun drones and replace them with SMS on the DF while maintaining the burst cannon, what is the net difference in value?

Is that a bad thing to a FW unit that's already lacking?


Well, a fair bit.
They go from AP4+, AT6+ GM to AP5+, AT6+ GM, AP4+ Ignore cover.

The formation isn't lacking as such. Hell I'd love FW instead of guard infantry. But within the Tau list they lose out in comparison on other formations or most missions.

I think its safe to say that Human Aux is pretty far off topic in this thread, so i'll refrain from responding here in hopes that we can keep this thread on topic - that is, FW formation in E:A and CS's original requests for help.


For the reason already stated I do think they should be looked at. I still hold to the FW problem isn't the stats per say (though they could be 'focused') but the competition. Without humans FW would be my garrisson. As it is, no competition.

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:23 pm 
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The Tau Codex often refers to Fire Warriors and their doctrines of battle, but when they are talking about Fire Warriors, the book often uses this to generally describe anything raning from a Fire Caste Memeber whom may be a Shas'la, Shas'ui, Shas'vre, Shas'el, or a Shas'o. He may also be in standard armor, stealth armor, crisis armor, or broadside armor... so quoting text that simply references what the Fire Caste Fire Warrior does is also going to miss the mark I believe you to be after.


I think this point is critical. Tau Operational theory defines how the units accomplish their goals. Their theory does not define who does what and in fact they even have formations (i.e. Stealths) that operate completely out of normal operations.

So the Tau assign goals that fit within their operational theories, then implement them with what tools are available.

The Strategic analysis of how the Tau conducted the Taros campaign is especially enlightening as there was a huge debate on what was the "best" way to meet the Imperial threat. Also it very interesting how the Tau naval tactics evolved in light of facing a superior force.

Eventually, the Patient Hunter aspect was adopted and then the tools were fit into the plan.

So, one way to look at it is:

1. Start with the end in mind (i.e. define the goal(s))
2. Adopt an operational philosophy
3. Align resources to support the goals
4. Remain flexible as the situation develops (allow for the switching from Patient Hunter to Killing Blow and back again)

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:17 am 
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Er I'm not sure if this idea has come up before.  But from what I can see from background material and 40K firewarriors weapons work most effectively at short range, like most rapid fire weapons.  Combined with the high S of their weapons and the pinning effects of pulse carbines they should be a real nightmare in a firefight.

On the flip side they will lose a fight against a paper bag, even if the bag has been paid to take a fall.  :p   Not only do they suck at close combat, they don't believe in it.

So after all that rambling why not up their FF to 4+ but remove their CC altogether (or give them 7+ if we want to be generous).

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:02 pm 
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For it was decreed the tau list shall never be an assault list. Here endeth the lesson.

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:56 pm 
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Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 29 May 2006 (10:49))
(Not trying to get at anyone here, merely intended for those that haven't been closely following this list's development for that long.)

As FF4+ seems to come up every six months or so, here's a quick reminder about why it is the way it is:  

Tau Fire Fight values are lower than both the background and 40k stats suggest.  This is a deliberate abstraction and is offset by Pulse Rifles 30cm range - note that they are not 'small arms' like most races' main infantry weapons (boters, lasguns &c.).

The design goal behind this was to discourage Tau players from getting thier Fire Warriors into fire-fights but instead to use the superior range of their pulse rifles to out-shoot opponents from a distance without engaging, as per the fluff.  By contrast, the low Fire Fight values encourage other races to close with the Tau and engage on their own terms which is where the Tau are less comfortable and weaker, again in line with the fluff.

I'm not saying this should be set in stone but FF5+ is 'wrong' for a reason, whilst changing it to 4+ might make them mre attractive to a Tau player, at the same time and for the same reason, it may be too powerful in the eyes of an opponent.  "What do you mean?  A 15cm AND a 30cm AP5 attack AND FF4 for only 25 points!  These guys are way too powerful."

Orde

When I said every six months or so that should have read every six pages of discussion... :(8:

Orde

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 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:07 am 
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I quite agree that a simple boast to the bluies FF to 4+ is too much, that is why I suggested that it is compensated by not giving them a CC value.  At the moment they have the same FF and CC as Imperial guard, yet they should out shine the IG at short range, but crumple in close combat with grots.

FF4+ CC- isn't something I would find attrative for an engagement.  It runs the risk of the enemy geting into BtB if the combat lasts long enough, or if they get the engage move.

Not being able to roll dice in an engagement sucks, ask any stealer or lictor. :D

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