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What's with all the macro-weapons?
semajnollissor
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:35 pm 
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So, after having finally played against tyranids, and having a look at the latest iteration of the list, the number of MW attacks that tyranids get (both in shooting and in CC) strikes me as odd. I mean, does every single template weapon have to be a MW? Can't some of them have a stat line in the ballpark of AT4+/AP2+ instead?

I guess I wouldn't be so concerned, but it seems like only the infantry lack MWs. Something like half of the AVs get MW weapons, while there are very few normal AP/AT shots. For example, do the exocrines (the Bs) really need 2x45cm MWs? Can't they hit on a better value, but be normal AT/AP shots? The same goes for the Haruspex A and its acid spray.

Now I realize these weapons are supposed to be uber-nasty bio-plasmatic, acid/enzyme soups that eat through anything, but it seems like they're being spread a bit too liberally through out the list, especially compared to the weapons in other lists. Also, there is a wide gap between the number of MW and the number of regular weapons.

I realize that they may be balanced for their point costs and all, and that maybe the large numbers of MWs vs the low numbers of normal shots might be part of the design plan, but it gives an impression of escalation.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:16 pm 
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I tend to agree.

I think that perhaps due to the shortage of Epic Tyranid models, there's been a tendancy to make many of the units better, and more expensive in points, to compensate for their (unrepresentative) lack of numbers?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:57 pm 
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I've been noticing MW levels in a couple of the lists feel higher then they probably should be. Eldar also come to mind, mostly because a lot of their MW get Pulse, more then that they get lots of them.

Tyranid big-bugs really should get MW attacks in melee, that feels right. After all these are big bugs which can pick a Land Raider up and roll it over without much trouble. Who crack open tanks and the like without even trying and lay waste to large numbers of the most heavily armored troops in the galaxy. I worry more about why the shooty attacks have so many MWs in them.

I've already voiced concerns about the Bio-Cannon in another thread. The Acid Spray on the Hierodule. This thing's rather weak in 40K, though I can understand that this isn't 40K but still. It's only S5 AP3 with a flamer-template... Flamers are AP 5+ I think, Ignore Cover. I'd make the bio-acid be AP 4+ Ignore Cover. Since it is better, but not THAT much better... That's just my opinion. There're a few others in the list which don't really feel right for being MW either.
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LEGION3000
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:34 pm 
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I completely agree to the sentiments on this topic and I think Evil and Chaos has it exactly right when he said:
I think that perhaps due to the shortage of Epic Tyranid models, there's been a tendancy to make many of the units better, and more expensive in points, to compensate for their (unrepresentative) lack of numbers?


The same is true for the spawning rules. ?They pretty much let you bring your whole army back every turn.

If you are tired of these rules take a look at my variant list called Epic "Classic" Tyranids.
The only ranged macro weapons the tyranids get are on the biotitans. ?while they retain close combat MW on assault spawn.

it can be downloaded here: Classic Tyranids

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:25 am 
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And the answe is

So they can eat Space Marines!

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Ilushia
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:34 am 
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I'm hesitent to claim that it's due to size concerns. And certainly I don't think spawning is. Spawning fits the style of the army and the fluff... But there really needs to be some adjustments to the amount of MWs in the list. I understand that very few bugs have ranged attacks and so a lot of those ranged attacks want to be very good, and I can respect that. But it just feels like they've got way more then they should have... Maybe make some of them (Breath weapons for instance) go to being something like AP3+/AT3+ instead of MW? It'll do damage, certainly, but it'll be less likely to eat entire Space Marine detachments and Eldar tanks and suchlike. Melee macroweapons work fine for me.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:26 am 
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Yeah, the melee MWs don't bother me so much, it's the availability of ranged MWs. I think it's important to keep in mind that many of the weapons of other armies have been changed from what they were in past additions in order to achieve an overall balance. So tyranids shouldn't feel compelled to make every gun previously called "bio-cannon" match what it once was able to do.

Make the list seem right, and it will work itself out. Also, toning down the weapons on the AV bugs might give them a point valua/spawning cost that makes them easier to respawn without being unbalanced.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:18 pm 
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Several of the 'nids with breath weapons shouldn't have them anyway, IMHO, in order to keep consistant with the new background / rules introduced in 40k in recent years.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:11 pm 
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Well, lets look at the harridan as an example. For 225 pts you get a 35cm speed, 2DC, 4+ reinforced armor skimmer with 2x 45cm MWs + 1xtemplate MW + 2xMW CC attacks + synapse abilities.

That seems a bit over the top compared to what other armies get. Now, if we reduced the bio cannons to AP/AT/AA 4+ or 3+, and take away the breath template (leaving that to the larger vituperator) then it seems more reasonable (at a reduced cost).

Maybe leave the ranged MWs to the WE bugs, restrict the breath template MWs to the *phants, -trix, and vituperator. Heck, I'm not even nevessarily saying that the other bugs couldn't get a breath template weapon, I just don't think they should all be MWs.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: What's with all the macro-weapons?
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:08 pm 
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Quote (Hena @ 31 May 2006 (13:41))
Harridan has 5+ reinforced, not 4+.

Is that another 7.1 typo then, or am I just reading it wrong?

I do agree that we don't have to rely on 40k for the role/weapons that the bigger bugs get (mainly because forgeworld has a bad track record on this topic).
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