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Newest GW price changes

 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:41 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 25 May 2006 (14:04))
So they do not "loose" money because some on line guys sells their product for 25% off. They sold it to him at 35% or 40% off to begin with and still made money.


I don't think this is fully accurate. ?Discounters do reduce the perceived value of the product by the market as a whole. ?Downward pressure on retail prices will eventually translate into downward pressure on wholesale prices.

Neal, although there is some truth to what you say, I disagree that GW was in such a situation at this point.

They were already actively keeping the price high by offering less then industry standard discounts on their wholesale prices, so they already were limiting this downward trend. Further, they themselves were artificially driving prices higher and thus created the demand for major discounters. Their pricing structures created the preception they were over priced, not the on line discounters.

Either way, GW has been and will always be their own worst enemy.

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:24 am 
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Quote (Heresiarch @ 25 May 2006 (15:21))
Quote (primarch @ 25 May 2006 (12:35))
Of course at those prices, just give it a pass and wait for the inevitable "bargain bin" price that will crop up to dump stock.

I don't think your going to see much of that this time around Primarch.

EA wasn't marketed... or pushed if you will... nearly as hard as E40K was so theres probably half the number of retailers stocking it than there was last go round.

And in smaller quantities too.

Hi!

Sadly, I think your right.

That was one of my rare moments of optimism....  :;):

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:39 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 25 May 2006 (16:33))
Quote (tneva82 @ 25 May 2006 (11:51))
b) is GHQ models sold in ebay for fraction of what they used to cost? GW can't compete with ebay prices so what can they do when people simply by same stuff from ebay...

I always find this kind of thought funny. You do understadn GW does make a profit when they sell their stuff wholesale to a retail outlet. Regardless of if it is a brick and mortor store or an on-line retailer. They make money off of all those sales.

It also means their profit margin on items sold through their own store is larger then most retail stores.

So they do not "loose" money because some on line guys sells their product for 25% off. They sold it to him at 35% or 40% off to begin with and still made money.

If they returned to their role as a manufacturer and quit trying to make it on both ends in double digits, they would not have an issue with on-line.

And for the record, they could compete with the eBay seller, but it would require their willingness to leave greed at the door and that is their real problem.

dafrca

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Totally correct. I was a retailer. GW sells to the retailer between 40-50% off retail price.

Online retailer can give steep discounts and make a profit easily due to lack of overhead. To a brick and mortar such discounts are financially improbable.

GW does something as a manufacturer that most try to do. That is avoid competing with their retail base.

GHQ manufactures, but does not have a retail outlet. It means retailers can buy their products and not fear competition from the manufacturer.

GW however, manufacturers AND agressively retails through store chains and online. Thats why every day more and more retailers stop carrying their line. Why would they? Its giving GW free market information to set up their next store and put that retailer out of business.

They make money on ANY transaction, be it wholesale or retail. The retailer only as a retailer makes money. The balance is in GWs favor.

Competing with ebay is difficult for GW, given their philosophy. They are accustomed in manipulating things since they control all aspects of their product. In ebay they control nothing.

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:48 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 25 May 2006 (17:04))
So they do not "loose" money because some on line guys sells their product for 25% off. They sold it to him at 35% or 40% off to begin with and still made money.


I don't think this is fully accurate. ?Discounters do reduce the perceived value of the product by the market as a whole. ?Downward pressure on retail prices will eventually translate into downward pressure on wholesale prices.

Hi!

As a former retailer, I have never bought this train of thought. Since if a product is perceived of "not good value" no matter what the discount it will not sell.

When something is perceived "good" then it will sell, of course the cheaper it can be obtained the better. That doesnt "devalue" the value of the product (it is after all wanted), in many cases it increases the desireability. Meaning one customer buys more than he would at a higher price.

Of course this is from a clients perspective. The manufacturer would love to sell lots of units at a higher price, but in a niche mrket such as miniature gaming, higher prices usually mean less sales. Regardless of the quality of the product.

These two forces working against each other is after all the basis of capitalism.

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:50 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 25 May 2006 (19:39))
Totally correct. I was a retailer. GW sells to the retailer between 40-50% off retail price.

I'm afraid things have changed more than a tad there Primarch.

At least here in Canada anyways.

GW's base discount from MSRP is a massive 35% plus *maybe* up to 5% extra if you pay your invoices on time and depending on your sales volume.

I'm not sure what it's like in the US... probably a bit higher since unlike Canada GW US does actually still sell to Dsitributors... but here in Canada the only option for GW is GW itself.

Which means that stores in smaller or even mid sized towns most often can't carry GW as they don't meet GW's minimum order requirements and therefor all that business pretty much gets channelled to GW mail order instead.

And in the larger centres all they do is when they see the sales volumes are high enough for/from the independent stockists then the just open their own retail outlets in the same areas as the independents are in.

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:50 am 
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Quote (Bombot @ 25 May 2006 (16:13))

The US is (so I gather) focused around independent stores.


This is one of those places where geography should have factored more into GW's marketing strategy.  Britain is so small you can drive from one end of it to the other in half a day;  I wonder if there is anywhere in Britain where you are more than an hour from a GW store (hyperbole alert -- I have no idea if this is the case).

In the US, things are so spread out that having a vast network of GW hobby stores is much less practical.  The kind of saturation that can be achieved with fifty stores in the UK wouldn't have even a fraction of the effect in the US.  I live five hours from my nearest GW store;  the next closest one is 15 hours away by car!  I was joking on another thread about driving from my home in Washington to a tourney in Connecticut, which would be about the same as driving from the coast of Portugal to Moscow, Russia!  

GW's decision to take a hard line with US indie stores was a terrible mistake.  They have the local expertise to maximize their sales, they have to bear all the labor and real estate costs of their shops, and they are the ones who mentor younger gamers and turn them into long-term customers.  GW/US should, in my opinion, divest themselves of their stores and push hard to support the indie retailers.

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:35 am 
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Quote (javelin98 @ 26 May 2006 (02:50))
[quote="Bombot,25 May 2006 (16:13)"][/quote]
The US is (so I gather) focused around independent stores.


This is one of those places where geography should have factored more into GW's marketing strategy. ?Britain is so small you can drive from one end of it to the other in half a day; ?I wonder if there is anywhere in Britain where you are more than an hour from a GW store (hyperbole alert -- I have no idea if this is the case).

In the US, things are so spread out that having a vast network of GW hobby stores is much less practical. ?The kind of saturation that can be achieved with fifty stores in the UK wouldn't have even a fraction of the effect in the US. ?I live five hours from my nearest GW store; ?the next closest one is 15 hours away by car! ?I was joking on another thread about driving from my home in Washington to a tourney in Connecticut, which would be about the same as driving from the coast of Portugal to Moscow, Russia! ?

GW's decision to take a hard line with US indie stores was a terrible mistake. ?They have the local expertise to maximize their sales, they have to bear all the labor and real estate costs of their shops, and they are the ones who mentor younger gamers and turn them into long-term customers. ?GW/US should, in my opinion, divest themselves of their stores and push hard to support the indie retailers.

This is, really, more or less correct. The other thing to consider is population numbers. Britain packs 60,000,000 people inside it's boarders, and is the size of a medium-sized state. Somewhere like Oregon. The US has roughly 50x as many people in a VASTLY larger area. For GW this means they need vastly more stores to get the same level of saturation as they would in Britain. And more to the point, independent stores can still afford to compete with them even at that level. They simply can't afford to open a store in every town, and that leads to places which are 4-5 hours away from the nearest 'official' GW store, where private stores open and make lots of money to local gamers. GW wants to be the sole supplier of their product, and on the smaller scale in Europe (and Britain especially) that's not too hard. On the scale of the US... That's a lot less practical. The shipping costs of moving material 2000+ miles across the US to keep your stores supplied alone is going to run you far more then it will when the furthest store from one of your production facilities is only 200-300 miles away. There's mitigating factors here, like the fact that 90% of the population is within 100 miles of the coast. But even then it's still very very hard to cover some 3000+ miles of coastline. VERY few chains of stores actually operate on a national scale in the US. And most which do operate multi-national or world-wide (McDonalds, Subway, Etc.) and have some kind of renewable profits.

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:02 am 
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UK population density:

60,609,153 people / 241,590 sq km = 250 persons/square kilometer.


US population density:

298,444,215 people / 9,161,923 sq km = 32 persons/square kilometer


True, not at all scientific or taking into account all factors, but as a point of interest, it's... well, interesting.

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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:43 am 
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Quote (Hena @ 26 May 2006 (05:03))
Quote (Ilushia @ 26 May 2006 (05:35))
This is, really, more or less correct. The other thing to consider is population numbers. Britain packs 60,000,000 people inside it's boarders, and is the size of a medium-sized state. Somewhere like Oregon. The US has roughly 50x as many people in a VASTLY larger area.

Fifty times? Umm.... 60m * 50 = 3bn. AFAIK US has 300m people so that around 5 times the people in UK. The area is vastly larger, that I agree on.

Shows how well I can do math these days! -.- Yes, the US is roughly 300 million people. 5x the population, vastly greater area.


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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:49 am 
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Quote (Hena @ 26 May 2006 (05:11))
Quote (javelin98 @ 26 May 2006 (04:50))
In the US, things are so spread out that having a vast network of GW hobby stores is much less practical. ?The kind of saturation that can be achieved with fifty stores in the UK wouldn't have even a fraction of the effect in the US. ?I live five hours from my nearest GW store; ?the next closest one is 15 hours away by car! ?I was joking on another thread about driving from my home in Washington to a tourney in Connecticut, which would be about the same as driving from the coast of Portugal to Moscow, Russia! ?

I cannot gather where Connecticut is in US map, but are you sure of this example? The leght from Lisbon to Moscow is nearly the lenght from Washington to San Fransisco. At least using the map in http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/world.html and my fingers on the screen (which isn't very accurate, but I couldn't find any numbers anywhere :8):).

My own distance calculations would seem to put it at about the same distance, roughly. At least by road if not by straight-line distance. From Seattle Washington to Stratford CT is roughly 3000 miles by road. Comparatively from Madrid Spain to Berlin Germany is only about 1500 miles by road. Not the same as the prior comment, no. But that's about half the distance between Portugal and Moscow. So it'd be reasonable to consider Portugal to Moscow to be in the 3000 mile range, about the same as you'd have to drive to cross the lower 48 states.

Comparatively: Every year my family and I go about 900 miles across the US in 16 hours or so to get to Gencon. Until about two years ago GW was ALWAYS there... Then they suddenly stopped coming for some reason. Makes me wonder why, considering it's the largest gaming convention in the world and prominently displayed their miniatures in years past... To put this in perspective for people living in the UK: This is roughly driving from London to Glasgow and back again. Then making the same distance worth of return trip just four days later.






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 Post subject: Newest GW price changes
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:33 am 
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While all this is very interesting (serious, I mean it) the bottom line is, the company who for so long earned 90% of the money spent by me for games and related items (paint etc) has lost my support 100%.

I can not help but feel I am not alone in this. I bought almost all of my GW stuff from my FLGS and bitz from the GW on line store. They killed the bitz and they killed my local store by opening one of theirs a mile away and then made sure my FLGS always was a few days late on all new releases.

I know they do not care about me. I know they believe they do not need the old man any more. Sad because I know in one year I spent more then three of the teens who lap up their crap and then proxy or only by from discounters. GW lost the real customers in my mind. But they do not care and so neither do I.

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