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Ideas for the Bio titans
ragnarok
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:43 am 
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A reasonable chunk of the V7.1 thread seems to be devoted to the biotitans and idea around making their rules mesh with those of the 40K FW version.  However I'm finding it hard to track such a discussion amongst the rest of the talk other on that thread  :down: , so I thought I would start a new one dedicated to our "small" bio titan.

First off the bosses offical version

Hierophant
Type /Speed /Armor /Close Combat /Firefight
WE /25cm /4+ /3+ /5+
Weapons /Range /Firepower /Notes
Bio-Plasmic Breath /Template /MW5+ /Ignore Cover
Monstrous Claws /Base Contact /MWTK(D3) /CC weapon +2 attacks
Cluster Spines /(15cm) /small arms
Notes: DC-6, Reinforced Armor, Walker, Independent. May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain that is lower then the war engines knees and up to 2cm wide.
Critical Hit: Roll 1D6 and consult the chart below.
1-5: The Hierophant loses one DC.
6: The Hierophant is killed.

An anti titan/ anti swarm monster.

Next up is Evil and Chaos' version

Type /Speed /Armor /Close Combat /Firefight
WE /25cm /4+ /3+ /5+
Weapons /Range /Firepower /Notes
2 x Bio-Cannon /45cm /MW 5+ /Ignore Cover
Monstrous Claws /Base Contact /MWTK(D3) /CC weapon +3 attacks
Lash Whips (CC ability) Number of attacks against the Heirophant in CC are halved (Rounding up).
Cluster Spines /(15cm) /small arms
Notes: DC-6, Reinforced Armor, Walker, Independent. May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain that is lower then the war engines knees and up to 2cm wide.
Critical Hit: Roll 1D6 and consult the chart below.
1-3: The Hierophant loses one DC.
4-5: Heirophant loses one DC and staggers D6cm in a random direction. Any models touched by the staggering Heirophant recieves a MW6+ attack. If the Heirophant impacts a building during its stagger, it comes to a stop, but loses a second DC.
6: The Hierophant is killed

A mixture of what we had and the FW stats

Finally (because I can  :p ) we have my take on the FW rules if translated into epic

Type /Speed /Armor /Close Combat /Firefight
WE /25cm /4+ /3+ /6+
Weapons /Range /Firepower /Notes
Lash whips and spore clouds (CC & FF), +1 attack per enemy in range
Living weapon (CC) all the Hierodules basic attacks are MW
bio weapons
0-2 Bio-Cannon /45cm /MW 5+ /Ignore Cover
0-2 Monstrous Claws /Base Contact /MWTK(1) /CC weapon +1 attacks
Notes: DC-4, Reinforced Armor, Walker, Independent, fearless. May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain that is lower then the war engines knees and up to 2cm wide.
The Hierodule must pick two bioweapons (It can't have all four)
Critical Hit: Roll 1D6 and consult the chart below.
1-5: Heirophant loses one DC and staggers D6cm in a random direction. Any models touched by the staggering Heirophant recieves a MW6+ attack. If the Heirophant impacts a building, or another WE during its stagger, it comes to a stop, but loses a second DC.
6: The Hierophant is killed

The differances.
Offical version.
The V7.1 version is a titan killer pure and simple, it scuttles up to them and cuts them in half.  Its bioplasma breath is there to stop the enemy from bunching up to assault it.

E&C's version
Removed the bioplasma breath because it isn't on the 40k version.  Much more stabby.  With a good roll it can kill a warlord in combat!  It also has a nice shootiness to it and makes it hard for the enemy to hit it in close combat.

My version
Isn't a titan killer.  It has 4MW attacks and a possible 2TK(1) attacks.  Its job is to remove the armour guarding titans so its big brother can kill it.  Gives them seperate battlefield roles.

Variable armament, so people with old models can use their guns.

Lashwhips and spore clouds act like crons gauss flux arcs, since they arn't controlled by the titan as such (but with a FF of 6+ they wont do that much)

Fearless, because it is a titan.

DC4, well it is a light scout titan.

So any other suggestions for what this baby should do?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:58 am 
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I think you're underestimating this thing's staying power. In terms of ability to absorb damage this thing is easily on par with C'tan and Greater Daemons just in terms of wounds/toughness, never mind Mass Points. DC 5-6 feels about right for it (it's got 3 Mass Points and enough wounds/toughness to be DC 3 to begin with). I like the idea of making all it's melee attacks MW (It fits with this thing being strong enough to tear up entire squads effortlessly), even in 40K though the spore-cloud is melee range only. Personally I'd be satisfied just seeing the 'Breath Weapon' become '2x Bio-Cannon. 45 cm/MW 5+/Ignore Cover' weapons and leaving the rest alone. That'd make the models match up with the Forge World ones, even if the secondary statistics don't. (the kill-rate on the spore clouds isn't very good in 40K either, it's only a 50/50 chance to wound a given model, and even then they get armor saves).
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 10:35 am 
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I gave mine DC4 because of translation from 40K.  All the superheavy tanks and the warhound are DC3 in each.  The Hierophant is DC3 in 40K, plus a load of wounds, so I upped it to DC4.

I think it should be quite weak for a titan.  I mean if an =][= can take one down with krak gernades then a volcano cannon should  :devil: .

Breath weapon.
E&C didn't include it because it isn't on the 40k version.  I didn't include it to shot it being too shooty.  I think that the breath wepoans are just too big for 40K.  they would have a stat line of "Every unit on the table takes 2 automatic lascannon hits"

Finally points.  I haven't bothered with points until we decide on which variant to use.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:33 pm 
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Quote (Hena @ 23 May 2006 (12:06))
Heh, the main difference is then that I don't have much interest in their ability in 40k. I don't want to see titans there (40k). So I go with what it used to be and that was tougher than an average scout titan. Also the breath weapon is enjoyable when used in game so I want to keep it :D.

That's the problem, we have to stick with established Cannon background when writing this list surely?

All indications from the design studio point to that as priority number one.

In the current cannon of the 40k universe, a Hierodule does not have a breath attack.

Give it to the Hydraphant, which doesn't exist in the universe at this point.






Here are some clarifications to my Lash Whips idea that I've posted in the 7.1 thread (Lash Whips are part of what makes the Hierophant so fearsome in CC in 40k currently, and their addition would help offset the loss of the breath weapon imho.)



"The lash whips are a neat idea, but I suspect they'd be too messy to try and figure out."

Lash whips specifically reduce the number of the enemy's attacks in CC in 40k.

I'm not sure I see what's so hard to do. At the begining of every Epic combat everyone always works out the number of CC attacks they have. This just adds one extra stage to it, reducing by half each type of attack.

Thus:

- 1 Macro Weapon Attack & 5 Normal Attacks

Would become:

(1 Macro Weapon Attack Halved is 1)
(5 Normal Attacks Halved is 2.5, round up to 3 as is normal with Epic)

And the end result of 5 seconds of Maths is:

- 1 Macro Weapon Attack & 3 Normal Attacks


The alternative I'd suggest would be to increase the enemy's CC value by 1. So 4+ CC would become 5+, etc. Lash Whips very specifically work against enemy attacks, not increase the Hierophant's abilities.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:51 pm 
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Again, there are numerous points at which "official' FW stats diverge from "official" EA stats.  A prime example is the Ork Battlewagon - the FW "Battlewagon" is the EA "Battlefortress" and even then the stats don't really line up.  Another is the fact that EA aircraft do not reflect the flying armories that are the FW 40K aircraft stats.

As far as "canon" I can point to 2 previous epic game systems in which breath weapons and acid sprays and various templates played an important part in the Nid army.  To that extent, it is the FW guys who are diverging, not to mention their arbitrary re-write of the naming conventions used previously.

Moreover, the FW guys have in at least one case (the Trygon) gone directly against the direction that the EA developers were given by the 40K design team.

Basically, outside of the 40K codex and direction from Jervis which is now 2+ years old, there is no "official" source for how to set up this list.  Even if there were such an authoritative source, there is an acceptable level of deviation based on system mechanics and scale and Jervis has stated such explicitly on numerous occastions.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:55 pm 
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Lash whips:  I am extremely hesitant about any mechanics being added.  The ones proposed above aren't really needed to produce the desired effect (CC dominance) and will only add a minor amount of flavor and feel while adding considerable fiddliness.  I doubt the tradeoff will be worth it.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:11 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 23 May 2006 (15:55))
Lash whips: ?I am extremely hesitant about any mechanics being added. ?The ones proposed above aren't really needed to produce the desired effect (CC dominance) and will only add a minor amount of flavor and feel while adding considerable fiddliness. ?I doubt the tradeoff will be worth it.

I've been thinking the same way.  Possible just call Lash whips and sporeclouds CC attacks without special rules, saying that such bomus that they give are already covered by the Hireodules CC value.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:12 pm 
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Instead of giving lash whips the ability to attack everything in range (seriously overpowered) or giving them the ability to reduce the number of enemy attacks (fluffy, but yet another special rule), how about this:

Tyranid units with lash whips may force enemy war engines in base contact to use their FF values instead of their CC values in the same way that a skimmer unit can.

Simple, uses a mechanic thats already in the game in another form, and not too overpowering. Heck, the rule can be written as simply as "Lash Whips confer the skimmer ability to the tyranid unit during assaults."
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:59 pm 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 23 May 2006 (16:12))
Instead of giving lash whips the ability to attack everything in range (seriously overpowered) or giving them the ability to reduce the number of enemy attacks (fluffy, but yet another special rule), how about this:

Tyranid units with lash whips may force enemy war engines in base contact to use their FF values instead of their CC values in the same way that a skimmer unit can.

Simple, uses a mechanic thats already in the game in another form, and not too overpowering. Heck, the rule can be written as simply as "Lash Whips confer the skimmer ability to the tyranid unit during assaults."

I'm not sure if I would want to make my biotian FF instead of CC.  The only time that would be needed would be against a warlord with a powerfist or two.  Even then I would prefer CC.  Nothing better than death and glory for the big guys.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:34 pm 
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Oh, well, then be a bit more wordy in the rules and say the enemy WE is forced to use its FF attacks, and the tyranid unit may use either FF or CC (as normal).

Of coarse, my suggestion (along with the others) assumes that it's okay to heap more rules on the tyranids. Since that might not be the case, wouldn't it be easier to just give lash whips (et al) a simple stat line that gives them CC extra attacks (+X), where X is whatever is eventually agreed on?

In any case, the lash whips and such only provide a "neat-o" factor, and aren't really necessary as the -phants are already pretty hard in assaults.
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dafrca
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Quote (ragnarok @ 23 May 2006 (08:59))
I'm not sure if I would want to make my biotian FF instead of CC. ?The only time that would be needed would be against a warlord with a powerfist or two. ?Even then I would prefer CC. ?Nothing better than death and glory for the big guys.

I have to agree with you here. I have always seen the Bio-Titan as a CC Titan. The idea of a Building sized Bug walking through the area trying to kill and eat all the poor little hummies was just too good a vision not to have played out on the table.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 10:09 pm 
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Anyways, even if the breath attack is to stay in, taking out the bio-cannons is not just slightly changing game mechanics, it's removing the beast's main ranged weapons system... it just doesn't sit well with me.

The extra attacks option to represent lash-whips seems overly powerful.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 10:54 pm 
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Quote (Evil and Chaos @ 23 May 2006 (22:09))
Anyways, even if the breath attack is to stay in, taking out the bio-cannons is not just slightly changing game mechanics, it's removing the beast's main ranged weapons system... it just doesn't sit well with me.

The extra attacks option to represent lash-whips seems overly powerful.

I don't know about just 'adding' two Bio-Cannons to them. That doesn't feel quite right. In 40K scale the ones you see usually are for hunting non-war-engines (as war engines in that scale aren't common enough). Comparatively in the old ATII game, the Heirophants carried 1 Bio-Cannon and 1 Razor Claw. At least that was their 'standard' load-out. Given the way the Bio-Cannon is actually described in the game though, I have a hard time believing that the Bio-Cannon which they use in 40K scale is actually the same weapon. In any case, I dunno why they put the breath-weapon on them. But I think it's reletively OK (It could do with a renaming to something like 'Bio-Acid Cannon' or the like, but stay functionally the same).

As far as the Ripper Tentacles go.. I really don't know how to make these work. Under the AT rules they removed the enemy's ability to use 1 Titan-Class CCW, which doesn't seem like it'd be very easy to make work in E:A.
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