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Space Wolves

 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:39 pm 
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Wow... Heh. This is kinda sad. There's a typo on the document, under the Wolf Guard Terminators' Pack-description, they still claim that they're limited to 0-1. THis is not the intent, as we have removed the non-Terminator clad Wolf Guard (They're assumed to be part of the unit the Leader is in in other units).


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:22 am 
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1. Still missing the character points in list.

The cost of characters are part of the base-price of the formations. Since they're manditory, the price is part of their price. Much like Imperial Guard Commanders or Black Legion Chaos Lords. The option of which leader you want was kept to allow some flexibility of units.

2. There is a line missing between thunderhawk and vindicator in the list.

Thanks. That one's just a typo. The program being used to build this list (OpenOffice) has a habit of eating lines when the file gets changed.

3. The Overdrive ability of the blood claw bikers is too good. That effectively gives them an engage range of 75cm.

This one probably is. Most likely it'll need to be dropped back to 25cm base? The idea was that the group could move very far, very fast, but at the risk of losing it's models in the process. Making them much slower the 25cm doesn't feel right. May have to remove Overdrive in general if people really don't like it.

4. Land Raider Mjolnir. Is that your own invention or does it have fluff base in somewhere? Here you don't need to say 'May not transport any units.' as the fact that transport (2) is missing means that.

This one's a creation of our own. There's no real fluff to support it's existance other then that it's know that Space Wolves are willing to disreguard the 'Machines are Holy' bit from the Adeptus Mechanicus and create/improvise new weapons when needed. The Predator Annihilator is the most famous of them. This was added to the list in order to make up for the lack of Titan assistance in the list. Much like how Black Templars have the Thunderhawk Annihilator, which as far as I'm aware has no fluff behind it either.

5. Sniper. Why does the SW get more snipers in scouts compared to marines. And why do the longs fangs get it? I'm thinking very much that sniper combined with 4 shots (2*45 and 2*30 MW) per stand is too good.

The Space Wolves do not get more snipers in Scouts then normal Marines do. Each Space Wolf Scout detachment can upgrade one stand to have it. The Long Fangs can upgrade multiple stands. As for giving Sniper to Long Fangs, I recall I had a reason for it, though at the time I don't think we had them with four shots each, I believe it was to help represent the Pack Leaders who's expertise is in knowing precisely where to put shots for maximum effect and guiding the pack to doing so. It's an extremely expensive upgrade and very powerful, no doubt. Four of them with Sniper will run you 650 points, as much as a Russ Company or two Tactical formations.

6. Why do the Long Fangs get 4 shots per stand (of which 2 is MW)?

This one has to do with the division of forces in Space Wolves. In normal Space Marines you have 10-man Dev-Squads with 4 heavy weapons (4 missile launchers in Epic). In Epic these are split into 2 stands per-squad. Long Fangs are organized as 5-man squads with 4 heavy weapons and 1 pack leader per squad. Much higher concentration of heavy-weapons then normal Dev-squads. The other reason for this is to make up for the total lack of heavy weapons carried by Grey Hunters. The Long Fangs are basically the only really long-range units in the army right now, except tanks and terminators anyway, and so they have to carry a large portion of the weight of long-range firepower. More so then normal Dev Squads do. You'll also notice they cost almost 1.5x as much. They could go higher, mostly I was thinking 'They have awesome firepower, but not much more survivability compared to Dev Squads'. So I'm hesitent to double their cost compared to Dev Squads. Is giving them this volume of fire, and higher price, too much?

4. Put version numbers to list. This makes it easier for others to figure out if they have latest list or not.

Ya. This one needs to be done. Sorry about the lack of them this time around... I'll get some put in ASAP.


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:46 am 
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The Wolf Lord will be updated in location next version... I don't have the capacity to actually make PDFs at present, so most of the actual file-creation is falling on my friend. I'll poke him to put it in the right place.

The Mjolnir... My only issue with making it MW 3+ is it's already Slow Firing, so at best it'll only be able to unload twice per GT game. I'm a little worried making it MW 3+ will make it too weak along with the slow-firing rule. If I do go for MW3+ should I remove Slow Firing? Does this make the unit too powerful you think? I kindof picture it being like a Volcano Cannon equivilent, only without the massive power-generating reactors of the significantly-larger Stormsword. Still as powerful, but requiring more time to recharge between shots.

I DO agree that Sniping Macro-Weapons are probably much too much. Would you object to dropping the price per-stand to 50 each and making it only affect Lascannons? Paying 75 points each for 2 lascannon shots seems a bit on the over-priced side to me. That'll make it twice as expensive as for Space Marine Scouts, for twice as many weapons which are slightly more effective, mostly as they're AP and AT.

Plasma Cannons. That's a possibility. Originally they had 2x Lascannons, 1x Multi-Melta and 1x Plasma Cannon. I shifted the Multi-Melta into a Plasma Cannon mostly because I thought it made them too good as 'fire on X then support assaults' units. Cutting them back to 1 MW 5+ shot is definitely possible.


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:50 pm 
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It is true that three of them costs 450 points. That's 150 per model. Ask yourself though, are three Land Raiders, even with Volcano Cannons, going to survive as well as three Shadowswords? Especially with those volcano cannons being slow-firing. I fully expect that the Mjolnirs will mostly be useful for killing weakened titans (Use your other units to knock down their shields, then the Mjolnirs to finish them off). Would you be opposed to dropping Slow Firing and moving them to MW 3+ instead? That would mean you'd average 2 hits per turn, but be able to fire every turn instead of every other turn. Right now they cost a LOT for what they do, they're nowhere near as endurant as a Baneblade or Shadowsword, and with such heavy weaponry they'll be a primary target by the enemy. I'd rather not give Space Marines a super-heavy ground unit all their own, even Space Wolves, it just doesn't feel right to me. The potential is there to make them worse, but at present I just don't feel that's needed.


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:15 pm 
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On a formatting note, I would include the "leader" in the list of units for the formations in order to avoid confusion, e.g. "8 Blood Claw units and Space Wolf Leader," in addition to the note in the intro/special rules.

I don't really think that the Sniper ability is justified on the Long Fangs.  As far as price, 1.5x is just about right for double firepower (see the Square Root Rule below).  I think they have a bit more than 2x, though.  MW5+ hit both AT and AP targets on a 5 and cause 1.5-2x kills on average.  Even with a 30cm range instead of 45cm I think that it more than doubles the firepower.  Nonetheles, it's still in the right ballpark and probably just fine for starting to playtest.

Square Root Rule - the Square Root Rule is an axiom of military planning that says that doubling the firepower of a unit does not double the effectiveness of a unit because the same amount of damage can still take it out of commission.  Doubling the firepower improves ia unit by roughly the square root of 2.  The reverse is true for making something twice as tough - it only puts the same amount of fire downrange.  In order for it to be twice as effective, it would need to be twice as shooty and twice as tough.

This has obvious implications for point-based systems and if you examine units in established armies, you will find they stick pretty closely to this kind of formula.

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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:18 am 
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Sorry it's taking me so long to get the next version up. Open Office aparently doesn't like my computer, so I still can't create PDFs and life has been really busy for my friend the last few days. I should have the new version up before monday (I hope!)


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:15 am 
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Alright, sorry this took so long to get up. Here's v1.2 of the list. Hopefully something which resembles playable.

If you have any questions about the changes to the rules lemme know, I'll be happy to try and clear them up however I can.


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:45 pm 
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Why are a lot of codex marine units altered?  I can see the basis of long fang/dev changes etc. but why -

the attack bike formation? - surely could just opt to change bikes to attack bikes as in vanilla sm

8 units seems a bit excessive for bikes, assaults and blood claws why so beefed up?

why 6 predators? also why not make w-winds, vindicators, predators 300 with opton of character upgrade?

if hunter is same as standard marine then needs to be 75pts, also why are LS 300 for 5?

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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:09 pm 
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1. Blood Claw assault pack. Why the move 35cm? Normal assault marines have 30. Also one might cosider using the unit size of 6. Eight is pretty high for jump pack marines (due to TSKNF).

I actually wasn't aware that they WERE a 35cm move (Shows how close attention I payed here!) I had thought they only had a normal move-speed for Jump Packs. I'll see about getting that fixed.

2. Blood Claws. Why is the assault pack cheaper than regulars? Same number of units (if rhinos are excluded), but assault pack has jump packs and better move. Also the cost of 60 is hard to balance to 100 point costs, so it would be better to aim at 50 or 25/75.

I think this one was because he based the original price on the price of Space Marine units of that kind, and just scaled how many there were. Then added the extra 100 for a leader character. I'm not entirely sure on the cost on these. But that appears about right. I'll try to get them fixed.

3. Scouts. You've made the scouts rather good. +1 CC and FF. And teleport. Why? They now resemble more like special forces than what marine scouts tend to be.

The Wolf Scouts are not like normal Scouts. In other chapters the Scouts are their entry-level troops, people not entirely Space Marine yet who are basically green recruits. In the Space Wolves those are the Blood Claws. In the Space Wolves the Wolf Scouts are the step between Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard, usually. They're akin to Space Marine Veterans in terms of position in the army, but dedicate their skills to the dangerous tasks of working far behind enemy lines. Months, sometimes even years, between returns to the Chapter's main lines. Working to disrupt enemy supply lines, and ambush the enemy when and where it hurts them most. Hence, they're extremely adept at appearing when and where they need, and pouncing on the enemy's throat at the worst times. We gave them Teleport and increased melee ability to represent the ability to work themselves into positions other Marines would never be able to get to and their elite combat status.

4. Iron Priest. Reinforced Armour. Does this character wear terminator suit? As the reinforced armour is pretty hefty upgrade.

If you look you'll notice the Iron Priest can only be fielded in vehicle packs. I gave him Reinforced Armor to represent his ability to fix the vehicle he's riding in, hence the only way to destroy it is to actually destroy it beyond his ability to repair it. The reason behind this was two-fold. One, it didn't feel right to me for normal Space Wolf leaders to ride around in tanks to battle. And two, most of the leaders didn't feel like they did anything all that useful for tanks. Most tanks don't get involved in Assaults directly if they can help it, so Inspiring, Commander and Supreme Commander are both a bit of a waste with them. Hence I felt they needed a leader who was actually useful to have, since they were required to blow the 100 points on a leader.

5. Cost of exterminators and hunters. Why the odd 60 and 70 point cost? Same reasoning as blood claws. And if the hunter is same as normal marines, use the marines cost (75pts)

The Exterminator is 75 each when fielded in a squad of 4 (Plus squad leader). I'm not sure why the upgrade is only 70 each. I'll get it knocked up to 75 each, though, if you want. The Hunter is a bit of a price break (10 points) because the Wolves have no access to interceptors at all. Hence the Hunter is their only air cover. If folks feel the 65 point price is too cheap (Possible) I'll get it shifted back upwards again.


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:17 pm 
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Quote (Steve54 @ 16 May 2006 (14:45))
Why are a lot of codex marine units altered? ?I can see the basis of long fang/dev changes etc. but why -

the attack bike formation? - surely could just opt to change bikes to attack bikes as in vanilla sm

8 units seems a bit excessive for bikes, assaults and blood claws why so beefed up?

why 6 predators? also why not make w-winds, vindicators, predators 300 with opton of character upgrade?

if hunter is same as standard marine then needs to be 75pts, also why are LS 300 for 5?

On the attack bikes. Space Wolves don't field normal bike units. The only 'normal' bike units they get are Blood Claws, who can't field Attack Bikes with them. Instead they organized the Attack Bikes specificially into their own units. It's an army-organization deal.

If you look, the Blood Claws are significantly less powerful then normal Bikes and Attack Bikes. I'm gonna see about having these dropped back down to 6 per unit and the price cut to be cheaper then Grey Hunters.

The price of characters are built-in to the formations. This is another one of the force-organization differences between the Wolves and other Space Marines. The Wolves fight in units, called packs, where every unit will be a group of marines who follow a specific leader. Each of these groups has it's own leader. I made the Predator formation up to 6 units because I wanted them to be a bit more useful, and it's the largest number of tanks that a Landing Craft can carry.

Land Speeders are 300 for 5 because 100 of that goes into buying yourself a character. All of the character prices are built into the cost of the unit they're with (Except the Wolf Lord who's an upgrade).


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 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:15 pm 
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Alright guys. Here's v1.3 with new costs on the Blood Claws and smaller formation sizes. The typos should be all fixed (If I missed any lemme know!) So hopefully this'll be good enough someone will want to try it out.  :)


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