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Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:18 pm 
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Tau Empires brings us a new 40K unit, the Vespid Stingwing unit.

1.  Do we want them in E:A?

2.  If we do, how do they look in E:A Tau?

In 40K, they consist of a leader and 4-9 other Vespids. They carry 12" range Strength 5, AP3 weapon (which does not afford marine power armor a save at all!) They normally hit on 4+ but can take advantage of Marker Lit units from the other tau so that their entire unit hits on 3+ if their target is 'lit' when they go to fire (as long as their sergent/unit leader is still alive).

Like Kroot, eldar, dark eldar and tyranids, they can fleet for extra movement even though they already fly on wings.

They also reroll dangerous terrain tests in 40K as they are skilled at landing and negotiating difficult/dangerous terrain better than the average jump pack equipped trooper in 40K.

Their right up says they operate in host of roles, including 1) advance field ops, 2) along side the main battle lines and 3) as a significant reserve force to the main push.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:19 pm 
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1- Upgrade to certain Cadres. Non 'vehicle'-based Cadres shouldn't *really* get access to them. [NB- Everything is a Cadre now 'really']
2- A Seperate formation on their own.
3- Perhaps they should get 1/2 stands with 'leader'. Each squad in 40k has Ld 9 with their Leader alive, so they seem instinctively 'better' at managing trouble until they're leaders go. A very interesting idea IMO, and certainly a way to allow 'Blast Marker Management' in Tau Formations....

'Purists' may not like it, but that's why the Vespids are here. They augment the holes the Tau can't manage. If it's BM management...

Anyhow, for stats, I propose:

Vespids ?
Type ? ? ? ? ? ? Infantry
Speed ? ? ? ? ? 30cm
Armour ? ? ? ? ?6+[Marine toughness with guard-weight armour...perhap 5+?]
Close Combat 6+
Firefight ? ? ? ?4+ ?

Weapon ? ? ? ?Neutron Blaster
Range ? ? ? ? ? 15cm
Firepower ? ? ?AP4+
Notes ? ? ? ? ? -

Notes:
Jump Packs

Formation, I'll go all out and suggest a round 10

As an 'Upgrade', perhaps addition of four stands?

NB- I think FF4+ represents them being able to get into good positions for firing as well as actual 'power' of their weapons. It also assumes they'll 'usually' be marked by someone 'somewhere'[a FW Shas'ui perhaps, a Stealth Suit Shas'vre...y'know].

Something...?




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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:46 pm 
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I would say that there should be four stands with a single leader. While they have a leader every 9 troops in 40K, so do Marines, etc.

They should act normally while the leader stand is alive, but should possibly just disappear if the leader is killed (they scatter without direction).

Xisor's suggestions 1 and 2 both seem fine to me in terms of army list addition. The stats also seem in the right range, but I would leave the armour at 6+ for now. I would probably give them a FF MW.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:16 pm 
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CS,

Is that 4 stands total or 5 stands total CS? Just looking for clarity.

Dissappear if the leader is killed ... do we get spawning and BM immunity too like the bugs? If not, means we'll be even MORE suseptable to sniper than the bugs tyranid warrior formations! Something tells me we'll be paying more per stand too... Ulgh - not a very enticing choice so far :(

Armor 6+ - with marine toughness and IG armor in 40K... hmm, I guess that's right.

Seems like thier flying skill matches the Eldar swooping hawks. And the Vespids can fleet. Seems like they'd match their speed.

MW FF4+... it sounds good... accept, 4-man formation, sniper suseptable, and armor 6+... heh - sounds good if they can get there anyway. ?:80:




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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:19 pm 
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BTW CS, you mentioned that not having Sniper Gun Drone Models would be one of the reasons not to go forward with them in E:A.

If we don't have Vespids in E:A, is that big enough deterrant to NOT go down the Vespid path too?

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:24 pm 
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Just curious, where does the MW come from?

Not that I have an objection, but not being familiar with the 40k stats I don't know what it is based on.
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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:49 am 
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MW (in E:A) usually comes from melta technology (in 40K), not AP3 weapons.

Other AP3 weapons in 40K are Krak missile, battle cannon, hell strikes, hunter killer missiles, and ion cannon.

The stingwings probably do *not* deserve MW from a conversion perspective.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:01 am 
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So they have a point blank rail rifle (if I understand the stats Tactica put up a while ago)?

I think with what is pistol range they can't justify a ranged attack surely? Well, then again they could if they keep the artifical low FF/high ranged fire of the rest of the tau, or will they be based on other races?

Are the leaders availible to upgrade Tau formations - I don't see why or how the Tau would benifit leadership wise from having a bunch of aliens joining their firewarrior group. Unless perhaps they were in front :)

Tactica, you are worried about snipers? Are you playing against Tau? :)

Proxy wise - clearly a time to use nids!

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:11 am 
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My original suggestion was at four stands total - one 'controller' and three of drones (keeps the ratio the same as 40K).

The alternative to 'disappearing' when leader killed is simply to assuem that every stand has a leader, and ignore this facet of the Vespids.

The issue with Snipe Drones is not necessarily that they dont have a model, but that the representation would be difficult to tell apart from a standard Drone. So, it would lead to the confusion of having two different sets of stats, both represented by the 'same' mini on the table. That is a no-go. Not having a mini to represent the unit has not got in the way of the Swordfish... Scorpionfish... Heavy Drones... Markerlight Drone Sentry Towers... well, you get the idea.  :D

I agree that the MW is contentious, but the weapon is quite powerful, and in my opinion in the same league as a Melta weapon. It is 'designed' as anti-Marine, and this makes it anti almost all other basic troop types as well. With no armour modifiers, this seems the closest match for the weapon without creating yet another special rule.

As for models, I imagine filing down some Swooping Hawk Exarchs. They should look fairly close.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:29 am 
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Indeed - in Epic the effect of MW is to make you an armour hunter (or of course a marine hunter, but you ge the picture, high cost high save units are typically vehicles). High AP is typically how such things are shown.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:23 pm 
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Fair enough. I am convinced. No MW then.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:29 pm 
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Also note that this is a case of five neutron Blaster approximating the effect of a macro weapon. It's not a single weapon here. If you look at *only* a single Neutron Blaster, then no, it doesn't compare to a Multi-Melta. Compare five highly mobile and easily positioned Neutron Blasters against the single multi-melta and I think it's a different story.

I suspect a MW ability would do well. The reason I suggest a ranged attack is that, to be blunt, the codex pretty much states they are *part* of Cadres[from an operating point of view]. In this vein, they *should* be an upgrade to Tau formations as well as a formation on their own.

A seperate formation of Vespids should be 8 Strong with Two Leader stands.

It's hard to imagine the leader-bonus benefitting the Tau, but the Tau and Vespids *seem* to be very close and very trusting of each other's ability and methods. I highly suspect that if an heroic stingwing was engaging nearby to a firewarrior group, they *wouldn't* be as pressed to 'keep their heads down' as much as they would feel a need to get in there and help them. This bond isn't as strong when it comes to the Tau & Kroot and the Tau & Humans.

I'd really think that it'd make sense that the 3+1Leader is the upgrade whilst the 6+2Leader is a formation on it's own. [Vespids, when led well, have a very high leadership]

Xisor

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:06 pm 
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Also, it might be helpful to keep in mind that Eldar Dark Reapers carry Str5 AP3 reaper launchers. Thusly, I think AP5+ or AP4+ would be a better translation for the vespid guns. If they need more oomph, you might add a 2x to the weapon line.

Alternatively, you might make them the odd-men-out of the tau forces and give them no ranged attacks, and just give them extra attack(+1) FF.
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