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Catachan Proposals
Chroma
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:39 am 
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Well, I got in one game with the Catachans this past weekend, and they were a lot of fun, if somewhat of a one-trick pony.

I've put together the following list of proposals to change them up somewhat, adding more options, reducing the strength of some over-powered things, and tweaking things. I really look forward to hearing Gary's and other people's take on it. ?Hope I'm not over-stepping here!




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Chroma
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:28 pm 
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Twelve downloads and no comments?  Somebody write me... please!  :down:

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:35 am 
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I'm no expert, but I believe the general opinion of the Catachan list is that it is way overpowered - and very far from official.  I thought I read somewhere that the guy who put it together did a lot of work on the books, made it look pretty and they threw it into the vault.  I don't believe a lot of playtesting was/has been done on it.

I know it's not necessarily what you're looking for comment wise - but seems most of us are focused on the Elysian list around here at the moment?
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:17 am 
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Sorry, fiddling with siegemasters at mo, will do catachins as soon as can :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:47 pm 
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Quote (Cosmic Serpent @ 09 April 2006 (08:35))
I'm no expert, but I believe the general opinion of the Catachan list is that it is way overpowered - and very far from official. ?I thought I read somewhere that the guy who put it together did a lot of work on the books, made it look pretty and they threw it into the vault. ?I don't believe a lot of playtesting was/has been done on it.

Well, I think one of the big problems was the Mortar teams: 4BP for 100 points, 30cm plus indirect fire, and fully garrisonable.

I've suggested the Mortar Teams be setup like the Autocannons, 1 per two stands to reduce them somewhat.

Another issue, and this will apply to the Elysians as well, is the sheer number of BP generated by mass Valkyries.  I've suggested reducing the base number of infantry stands and Valkyries in the core formations.

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:12 pm 
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Personally, I don't really understand why the Catachans even have Valkyries?

I know in the guys list he was envisioning a Vietnam type style - but no where in the fluff about the Valkyrie or the Catachans does it even mention them?  I would think these guys are more along the lines of small teams roving through the jungle, a la Vietnam era special forces?  Just my take though.

I do agree the Mortars are a huge issue - I think that is one of the main criticisms of the list - Elysians have mortars - but they are 1 BP per stand, and you only get two of them.  IMHO - I think we did a much better job at not letting overpowered units creep into our list - we've intentionally made things weeker - as it seems easier to increase their strength if needed than trying to decrease it.
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Honda
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:01 pm 
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@Chroma


Another issue, and this will apply to the Elysians as well, is the sheer number of BP generated by mass Valkyries.  I've suggested reducing the base number of infantry stands and Valkyries in the core formations


This was a concern from the get go with the Elysians. What I have discovered is that if you put everyone/everything in a Valkyrie, you have so few units to fight with that you pretty much eliminate yourself from contention in the end phases of the game.

A couple of balancing factors, at least from an Elysian perspective are that, the core infantry is still pretty pitiful when it comes to sustainability (i.e. no saves), so you need lots of units on the ground to do more than be a one shot charlie. Also, the core formation is only 8 units + Leader. We also have a reduced number of Commissars compared to a standard SL list.

Also, if you tie up all your points in Valkyrie transport, true that first shot is pretty painful, but after the smoke clears, the Elysians have very little left, which I have discovered rather painfully against Eldar.

However, I am not trying to infer that this list is perfect. This next round of testing is going to be a discovery phase where we see where the anomalies are now that we have all the formations (i.e. aerospace/aircraft) in their first cut.

I have a game this week against SM, with other beatings to be scheduled.  :/

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Tactica
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:47 pm 
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Chroma,

In general - this is good effort. The list is moving in the right direction. Presently, the Catachan list was really over the top IMHO. Your changes start to move it in the right direction.

In the Elysian list, we figured the Valkyrie to be approximately 40 points each.

With that expectation, your Catachan Aircav appears to be over priced by 50 points...

your catachan vet platoon valkyries appear to be under priced by 10 points though!

Either way, there apperas to be an inconsistency in your valkyrie pricing within the list, regardless of the value you put on them.

60cm max range for indirect firing motars seem too long. In 40K, they only have a 48" range. If you factor in an addition 5cm from the norm of 45cm seen in 40K conversions, that would still be 50cm. Would 25cm Indirect (and every other one) seem logical here? Just a question.

Doesn't the base Steel Legion Reg HQ only charge 75 for the SC?

SL inf plat = 250
7 chimera = 175
----------------
  Subtotal = 425
Sup Cmdr = + 75
=============
GRAND TOTAL = 500

Why are you charging +100 here? (PS - I asked Honda the same question in the Elysian List)

Anyway, I'm sure there are more comments - but this was the stuff that sort of 'stuck out to me' at first glance.

So - is your goal to champion this Catachan cause?

Also, heavy flamers, missile launchers, and mortars seem to be the big Catachan draw. Lots of heavy flamers in fact. Do you see them being used much here on this scale?

Regards to mortars, should the various IG lists make the same use of a 'mortar' as far as stat lines go?

Cheers,

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:05 am 
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Doesn't the base Steel Legion Reg HQ only charge 75 for the SC?

SL inf plat = 250
7 chimera = 175
----------------
?Subtotal = 425
Sup Cmdr = + 75
=============
GRAND TOTAL = 500


The SL supreme commander does work out at 100 points .

The mech company is 400 points and the RHQ company is 100 points more .

The chimeras are only 25 points each if they are added from the company upgrades not if they are bought in the companies section (from there they work out at 150 for 7).

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Tactica
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:33 pm 
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25cm direct fire
30cm - Xcm is the trajectory based 'indirect' fire as the range is doubled.

At the 35-30cm range, the weapon wouldn't be able to hit anything though. Guess that would require a single move.

60cm+ does seem 'out of range' for regular hand held mortar team though.

Especially when the "HEAVY" mortar of the Imperial Guard mounted on a griffon only fires 30cm indirect (60cm).

Just my perspective though

Cheers,

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Catachan Proposals
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:25 am 
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Hi,

here's an idea :

Mortars 45cm 1 BP Indirect, See Below

Notes:
Only one unit in every two has Mortars. Count up the number of infantry units in the formation that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find the total number of BP for the attack.
Mortars firing indirectly do not double their range and have a minimum range of 15cm.

Now this may be too many special rules for the same unit, but perhaps the idea is worth fiddling with a bit...
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