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General Guard Rant
Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:34 pm 
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So, looking at the Tau list those boys have over there - wow are there lots of toys in there to choose from. ?And if you haven't seen some of the paint jobs those guys are whipping out, go take a look at them as well - they are just incredible, regardless of what army you play.  

Looking over the stats of Firewarriors - they have an armor save of 5+. ?Marines have an armor save of 4+. ?In 40K these two armies have base saves of 4+ and 3+ respectively.

So with that reasoning - should Imperial Guard troops have a save of 6+, as they do have armor and in 40K it provides a 5+ save? ?Just can't figure the reasoning behind having absolutely no save for IG troops?

Steps off soap box ?now. ? :;):
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:44 pm 
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Well, strickly speaking firewarriors and that have a 6+ save same as Orks with thier high toughness, however shield drones and the like are abstracted onto thier stands so it goes up to 5+. Marines have good armour and toughness so are at 4+. Guard have poor armour and toughness so hide in cover.

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tneva82
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:45 pm 
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Quote (Cosmic Serpent @ 25 Mar. 2006 (17:34))
So with that reasoning - should Imperial Guard troops have a save of 6+, as they do have armor and in 40K it provides a 5+ save?  Just can't figure the reasoning behind having absolutely no save for IG troops?

Orks have 6+ save. If you give 6+ to IG troopers then would you be willing to give 5+ for orks?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:10 pm 
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So with that reasoning - should Imperial Guard troops have a save of 6+, as they do have armor and in 40K it provides a 5+ save?


No.  Armor value is based on far more than just the 40K armor rating.  It includes all kinds of defenses:  high toughness, shield drones, stealth ability, speed/maneuverability, etc..

The units you are comparing them with have other defenses that the IG don't have.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:34 pm 
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And it's not just the IG. Eldar Guardians, which have the same save and toughness as an IG trooper in 40K also have no save in E:A.

Just remember that the AP weapons in E:A probably would wound an IG trooper on a 2+ and wouldn't allow a save. Meanwhile Orks can hide behind stray grotz, tau have shield drones, etc.

Also, keep in mind that the Tau list isn't anywhere near official, despite what some of the Tau testers might think or have you believe. Pointing out the areas where you feel that the Tau point values do not match their effectiveness is time well spent (as it is for every list).
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Honda
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:38 pm 
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Also, keep in mind that the Tau list isn't anywhere near official, despite what some of the Tau testers might think or have you believe. Pointing out the areas where you feel that the Tau point values do not match their effectiveness is time well spent (as it is for every list).


I think this statement is a little harsh. I think what a lot of Tau testers might say if you asked them, is that we feel like we finally have a list where most of the obvious unbalancing factors have been taken out or mitigated against.

It is at this point (which we have been working towards for several months) that real and lengthy testing can take place.

It doesn't do the game or the community any good to throw trash. You have a voice in the matter just like everyone else who chooses to participate. Expressing it openly only helps the various teams during the process.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:13 pm 
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WE always give a 6+ save for things that G/W rates 0 ... it only makes sense.  That was one of my/our big problems with SM2 and another reason why we never went over to that system ...  0 Saves ... Huge units with no saves ... it took longer to put stuff on the board and after the first round of firing ... you had to take them all off !  ???

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jfrazell
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:35 pm 
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Stormtroopers have a 5+. whats the problem?  They both have carapace equivalent armor.

As for guard armor not being 6+.  Maybe they agree that a 5+ flak armor save is pretty much as craptacular as a 6+ ork armor save :down:

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Markconz
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:01 pm 
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If you are comparing with 40k, there is  a very good reason why Guard and Guardians get no save - many AP weapons in that game totally negate 5+ armour, but still allow Marines and Fire Warriors their normal 3+ or 4+ save respectively.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:50 pm 
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It does seem a bit odd - marines 4+, stormies 5+, guard ... nothing.

Nevertheless, I would agree that in 40K stormtroopers are harder to kill with small arms than Orks, and Orks are harder to kill than guardsmen.

Came to this problem when looking at the Sisters of Battle: they're tougher than Stormtroopers, yet not as tough as Space Marines - what armour save should they have?

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:50 am 
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Well - all very good answers, and I see where you're coming from.

How would you explain the Stormtroopers though?  Same physical people as guardsmen, 5+ save?  Going from that to nothing, when their armor is just seem to fit.

Keep in mind, this is just an observation on my part.  I don't really expect or want guardsmen to have a 6+ save - it would be nice, but really this is just a "something I noticed that doesn't seem to make sense" sort of thread.
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Markconz
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:33 am 
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Remember that from many small arms in 40k, stormtroopers will take 1/2 the casualties that normal guardsmen will take. In epic AP is an abstraction covering many types of weapons and stormtroopers take 2/3 the casualties normal guardsmen take. Ie there is nothing wrong here.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:32 am 
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Plus they shout hut hut a lot and do daring rolls from bush to bush.

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Markconz
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:28 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 29 Mar. 2006 (06:32))
Plus they shout hut hut a lot and do daring rolls from bush to bush.

Lol!

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Gotchaye
 Post subject: General Guard Rant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:58 am 
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In 40k, any AP weapon that gets given anything more than a 'small arms' rating wounds Guardsmen on a 2+ and allows no armor save.  Those same guns will generally only wound an Ork on a 3+, also allowing no save.  Fire Warriors and Stormtroopers take wounds on a 2+, but get a save against some of them - Heavy Bolters don't allow it, but Burst Cannons, Big Shootas, and Shuriken Cannons do.  Space Marines not only only take wounds on a 3+, but they get that amazing armor save.

Sisters are a tough case, though I'd be inclined to give them a 4+.  They're certainly well above Stormtroopers and Fire Warriors, and they're almost as hard to knock down as Space Marines.  In addition, we've got Eldar Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders with 4+ saves already, and they're defensively equivalent to Sisters.
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