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V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
clausewitz
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:05 pm 
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1)As we are to playtest this unit, I think we should first let it be taken in formation of 1, 2 (or even 3 ) to widen the range of the test. If it seems too flexible, let's restrain the size of the formation.

A persausive arguement.  Ok, how about we maintain the current availablility and go with the contingent on 1 Scorpionfish for 225 with the option of adding another for 225?

Leave the Dragonfish for now?

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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:31 pm 
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@Honda,

I think we absolutely need to be able to take 1 of these as well as more to get a feel for whether the thing is first balanced at 225 for one.

Eldar, Chaos and IG have set that precident of taking a single SHT at similar prices.

I also think we need to test taking a pair of them for 425. The ?25 point discount comes at the logical cost of tieing up more points so less activations in a pair. Without some benefit for taking multiple, people will tend to take individuals. Again, we see a precident with the IG formations of SHTs. Our multi-SHT formation will still not be a cadre though, so there's even less benefit from our SHT multi-unit formation by comparison - so some discount needs to be here - lest, they never get fielded.

We have to try something sooner rather than later. Having the option to take a single or double in a formation definitely aligns with CS's vision to the best of my knowledge.

When IG can take 200 point shadowswords and baneblades - there's no worry that the tau will have SHT formations that are cheaper or more plentiful than other lists.

(grumbles: I wonder if people really belive the stuff they write in public forums sometimes.)

SC upgrade @ ?+100 points simply adds tau SC to a Scorpionfish, nothing more (call it the Dragonfish upgrade). Note: As IG have established that a SC can be priced at 75 points, I think we have the same justification if needed. Our SC isn't a hth god and replaces commander with tau CF. Not suggesting the change now, just noting that there's justification for reduced points in the future for a lord that simply brings SC to the table. Again, for the record - I think +100 is the place to start for the SC (Dragonfish upgrade).

Better to test 'something' now than to continually push things off to the next release. Afterall, at some point - I'd like to be done with this list!

See you on page 20+, v4.4 PRINT IT! :p

Cheers,




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clausewitz
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:46 pm 
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Tactica, IG get a discount for the SHT company, but Eldar EoV do not.  Neither do the Black Legion. The Ork War Horde doesn't get a discount on WEs either.  Shouldn't we follow the majority example?

It was pointed out that taking two Scorpionfish in a formation takes up one less contingent slot, so there is a slight advantage in that.
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Honda
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:09 pm 
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Here I was getting ready to yield for the Greater Good...  :/

Ok, I am more interested in keeping the momentum rolling and getting the list out to use (selfishly, I want to use 4.4 next week).

So, I am willing to yield on the non-single Scorpionfish + SC Upgrade for 300 pts, even though I do not think it the correct thing to do.

This has been a very good discussion and has accomplished a lot in a short period of time, if not a short number of pages. So by all means, let's move on.

So, I am agreeing to support the 2 x Scorpionfish and if the SC upgrade is used, then the final cost of the formation would be 525 (which in most cases will shoot up a flare to your opponent and say, "Ooh, ooh, take me out first, I'm the BTS").

:/

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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:36 pm 
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Quote (clausewitz @ 21 Mar. 2006 (11:46))
Tactica, IG get a discount for the SHT company, but Eldar EoV do not. ?Neither do the Black Legion. The Ork War Horde doesn't get a discount on WEs either. ?Shouldn't we follow the majority example?

It was pointed out that taking two Scorpionfish in a formation takes up one less contingent slot, so there is a slight advantage in that.

Cw,

Its debateable - but I don't want to do that [debate it that is]. :p

I'm just ready to get v4.4 out so we can start playtesting again.

I'm all for erring to the side of caution.

225 for a single

450 for double

+100 for SC *IF* CS wants to include it...

Print it!

Cheers,




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:59 pm 
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SC wise what is more survivable? The 350 crisis formation or proposed 325 DragonTriScorpiToothFish?

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:06 pm 
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ok my argument is over. I'll not propose anything more about this.
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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:21 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 21 Mar. 2006 (12:59))
SC wise what is more survivable? The 350 crisis formation or proposed 325 DragonTriScorpiToothFish?

TRC,

Impossible question without qualifiers, also irrelivent if you are paying for the SC and the base units adequately.



V4.4 - PRINT IT!

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:40 am 
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The qualifiers would be you are being attacked by the enemy?
As in can you take more/less hits, of what type, are you more or less vulnerable in assualts, how does the use of cover change for you, vulnerability to breaking, advantages dissadvantages of upgrades. Its like I can confidently say a Commissar in a Leman Russ is better off than a commissar in a chimera survivability wise, but here it costs 3 times as much.

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HecklerMD
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:10 am 
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How about 1 for 275, and add 1 (upgrade) for 175-200 more, for a total of 450-475 for 2?

275 prevents us from creating (much of) a activation advantage, but we still get a discount for taking multiples.

And the SC Upgrade+ Deflector for 100-125 more?

SC wise what is more survivable? The 350 crisis formation or proposed 325 DragonTriScorpiToothFish?


Hard to say.  Its harder to single out a stand of XV8s from a cadre, easier to do so to 1 SHT of 2.  And if you only take 1, and give it the SC... risky.

Crisis are extra vulnerable to MW BP like Soopagunz and Orbital Bombardment, the ScF extra vulnerable to Pinpoint attacks from spacecraft, and Deathstrikes.

Whatever the answer is, its probablly a good thing that the answer is not so obvious.  We want players to think about thier decisions. :p

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:14 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 21 Mar. 2006 (16:31))
I think we absolutely need to be able to take 1 of these as well as more to get a feel for whether the thing is first balanced at 225 for one.

Just to be obvious you don't if you have them balanced at x for 2 and thats the formation size you want running around :) You only have to balance them singly if you want to use them singly!

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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:40 pm 
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OK,

Well - regards to points, I'm OK with CS making a call for us to get into v4.4 with.

Whatever it is, it is.

Ready to playtest... PRINT IT :p

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HecklerMD
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:56 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 22 Mar. 2006 (07:40))
PRINT IT :p

STOP IT!  :p
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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:57 am 
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@Heckler,

Party pooper. :/

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orkybob
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:30 am 
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No Tactica's right....

PRINT IT ?:p
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