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Elysian Air Units
Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:40 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	6)  According to IA-1, page 224, their are 21 different patterns of Thunderbolt. Like the lightning, Cypra Mundi was the original pattern. Pick one of the others! Again, Bakka is good one. IA-1 thunderbolt text for your reference... The Thunderbolt is the Imperium's frontline, single-seater, heavy fighter. It is the main-stay of the Imperial Navy Fighter wings, a tough, well-armed all-rounder, with good top speed and manoeuvrability, powerful nose mounted armaments and wing hard points for missiles or bombs. It is well liked by its crews and has provided good service for many centuries. Durable and dependable in a fight, the Thunderbolt's main role is as an air superiority fighter, to seek and engage enemy aircraft in dogfights or hunting enemy bombers to establish air superiority over the battlefield. On eo fthe Thunderbolt's strngth is its versatility, with good performance as a high altitude escort fighter or a low level fighter bomber, as a night figher or even as a reconnaissance aircraft. The Thunderbolts wing hard points can carry bombs, air to surface Hellstrike missiles or, more rarely, air to air missiles. A Thunderbolt can be equipped with fuel tanks to increase the aircraft's range, but as the Thunderbolt already has a long range for a fighter this is not often necessary. Quad nose-mounted autocannons and tiwn-lined lascannons give the Thunderbolt a reputation for packaging a big punch for its size. The lascannons are mainly used in the ground attack role to engage enemy vehicles, whlst the autocannons are the weapons of choice for dog fighting and strafing enemy infantry. Whilst the Lightning is faster, with better rates of climb and dive, it is also a lighter aircraft, less rgged in design and more demanding of maintenance crews. The Thunderbolt, like the Lightning, is equipped with a rocket booster engine. This can be engaged to give the fighter limited operational capability in space. This is only for transport and deployment, not for combat, and Thunderbolts are not true 'star-fighters', a role left to Imperial Furies. The rocket engine allows a Thunderbolt to deploy from a space ship in low planetary orbit into the atmosphere, and can be engaged once the aircraft has reached its atmospheric ceiling with its jet engines to boost the fighter back to its waiting mothership. The rocket engine is also used in fast launch ramp take-offs. Imperial Navy wings vary in size considerably. They usually consist of between ten and twenty aircraft although some are much larger. Each fighter wing traditionally takes a nickname, usually some form of flying creature or monster. There are many thousands of wings stationed on Battlefleet space ships, space stations and ground bases across the galaxy. _________________ Rob

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Honda	Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:55 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	@Tactica Read though your text real quick agree on: 1. Drop Avenger name. Also sounds like we drop the IA3 version of this aircraft and use the Cypri Mundi pattern IF we want to use that aircraft. So do we? 2. I like Bakka for the pattern type (Japanese for cherry blossom, if I remember correctly). So, I'll update the Lightning stats to say Bakka pattern. More later... _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Tactica

Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:58 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

7) there are 16 patters of 'Maurader Bomber' per IA-1 page 230... the Maruader bomber has 3 roles all detailed in IA-1 on page 229 since I typed out the others from IA-1... Like all aircraft, the maurader comes under the command of the Imperial Navy, not the Imperial Guard. Tehy are often based on orbiting spacecraft, and can operate in the vacuum of space. In prolonged campaigns, naval airbases will be established on the ground. Due to the Marauder's long range, these can be far from the frontline, safely away from enemy attacks, better still, on another continent! Teh Maurader itself is the workhorse of the Imperial navy. It has a very long range with good speed and maximum payload for its size. Commonly, Marauders are used in one of three roles. Firstly, in a strategic bombing role. These are long range attacks on enemy held cities, spaceports, industrial centres and supply routes. In this strategic role, the squadron can oeprte at high altitude, beyond the range of most anti-aircraft weapons, with Thunderbolt wings escorting to provide anti-fighter defence. Secondly, in a free ranging interdiction role. Squadrons fly deep into enemy territory seeking targets of opportunity; supply convoys, fuel dumps, troops in the open etc, to attack. these targets may have already been identified by aerial or orbital reconnaissance but the aircraft are not acting in concert with ground troops. Thirdly, in a dedicated groudn attack close support role, flying directly in support of gorund troops and engaging specific targets on the frontline. These are by far the riskiest missions, being much closer to friendly forces and generally taking place at very low altitude. Close support missions are fraught with difficulty. the problem of identifying targets and getting the information rapidly and clearly to an incoming aircraft in time, whilst the situation on the ground is constantly changing, has been tackled in various ways. Different commanders and uits seek their own solutions. Some units mark targets with weapons fire or coloured smoke to indicate a target to a pilot. Standing orders might be that 'red marks a target', and anything with red smoke can be freely attacked by strafing aircraft. Some regiments deploy forward air controllers. These are usually Imperial Navy personnel who volunteer for the task of going in with the ground troops. These can be pilots, with the experience needed to guide their comrades onto targets accurately. Riding in commmunications vehicles, they can talk directly to the pilots overhead. A third tactic calls for a more co-ordinated approach. Pre-warned ground forces will withdraw prior to an air strike, falling back a set distance before an air attack commences to allow room for misplaced bombs. This is a risky tactic because it means disengagin from the enemy. The Maurader is capable of flying all of its three mission types successfully, but it is felt that its payload is a little too small to be a truly effective strategic bomber, and it lacks the correct weaponry to be at its most efficient in a dedicated ground attack role. It is in the secon, interdiction role that a Maurader is at its most effective. _________________ Rob

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Tactica

Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:58 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

8) Forgeworld of origin for the 'Maurader Destroyer' is Cypra Mundi - like all Navy - as its the primary Navy forgeworld.  However that the pattern was first used on Armageddon before being sanctioned... as that is the real 'source' of the pattern we are using, I say we call the Maurader Destroyer in our use as the Armageddon pattern... note, that there. Note, there are 7 patterns of the 'Maurader Destroyer' per IA-1 page 236... Oh heck... the write up on this one is good... The Destroyer is the name given to a particular variant of the Maurader Bomber which is deisgned for dedicated ground attack missions. It has reduced bomb payload in favorur of increased firepower. It bristles with weaponry: it's nose cone mounts size autocannons, capable of unleashing a maelstrom of fire. Under the wings are eight racks for Hellstrike missiles. The tail turret replaces the standard defensive heavy bolters with two assault cannons, which are used to strafe targets after the main attack run is complete and the Maurader is climbing away from the target. The Maurader is primarily equipped for deployment in close ground support. It lacks the bomb payload for any other role, although it can search for emerging targets behind the lines with its missiles and reduced bomb load, but there are generally too few Destoryers for it to be wasted in the 'interdiction' role. Records show that the first use of the Marauder Destroyer was during the Second War for Armageddon, after heavy losses in the Naval airforces. Ork dominance of the skies over certain areas of Armageddon forced the few remaining Mauraders to be refitted to operate at night, flying at extremely low level where they could evade detection. Given the new low-level tactics, a new weapons payload was sanctioned. Tech-Priests added tracking and sensor systems, which enabled the Destroyer to fly and fight in the dark at heights as low as 100 metres and speeds exceeding 1500 kph. The six nose-mounted autocannon, eight Hellstrike missiles and two assault cannon allow the Destroyer to blast its way through to a target, deliver its payload and fight clear. Airbases, headquarters and supply depots are all high priority targets, which, if neutralised, can drastically reduce combat effectiveness. Unfortunately for Imperial forces, they are also among the most heavily defended. If attacking such targets with the standard Marauder, the Imperial Navy might use an entire squadron, carpet bombing enemy positions from high alititude. The Destroyer however, crewed by hand picked Imperial Navy pilots, allows Imperial commanders to strike hard at these key targets with far less risk of failure. The heavy firepower also means a Destroyer is the weapon of choice for close ground support. As an added bonus, the deafening roar of a low flying Maurauder Destroyer's quad ram-jets, as it comes in for attack run, is a great boost to friendly ground troups' morale. _________________ Rob

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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	I can do my playtested stats with reasonings when I get the chance Re aerospace the fluff is contradictory, has them fighting in space as well, some fighting only in atmospheres. Thanks for the transcripts though, especially the thunderbolt lascannon bit. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 21 Mar. 2006 (12:45)) I can do my playtested stats with reasonings when I get the chance Re aerospace the fluff is contradictory, has them fighting in space as well, some fighting only in atmospheres. Thanks for the transcripts though, especially the thunderbolt lascannon bit. I don't think its contradictory at all - all 4 planes can drop from and move back into space. all and have limited mobility in space and are not meant to engage in space. Those engagements are left for Furies - something that's not discussed in IA books. Looks pretty clear TRC. _________________ Rob
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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:45 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	After reading everything, I'm kind of confused on where we stand on this?  Are we using the stats as presented in IA3?  Are we creating our own patterns?  I know Honda is very against changing the Thunderbolts - but I for one am very for it.   Something I told one of my peers during a business deal once - just because you've done it that way for 20 years, doesn't mean there isn't a better way to do it.  I think that applies here.
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:32 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	No, not that fluff - the other GW fluff - including from 'official' sources as opposed to the semi official forgeworld source that has navy units using lightnings and thunderbolts for spce duties. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Legion 4	Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:18 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Yes ... "the Bakka" was known by the Allies as "the Fool" ?IIRC the Japanese name was "Oaka" - "Cherry Blossom" ! ?Don't have IA3 ... so I'll just watch from a distance ... ? _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Honda

Post subject: Elysian Air Units Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:08 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

After reading everything, I'm kind of confused on where we stand on this?  Are we using the stats as presented in IA3?  Are we creating our own patterns?  I know Honda is very against changing the Thunderbolts - but I for one am very for it.   I think you greatly misunderstand my intent. I am not against changing the stats of the Thunderbolt. What I do not want to develop is a bone of contention where suddenly we are pitting "our" Thunderbolt vs. "their" Thunderbolt. Same for the Marauder Bomber. You're going to lose that one every single time. Let's keep in mind a couple of things: 1. We do not have an "offiicial list" stamp on what we are doing. I want to get us to that point, but there are a number of things we need to do, not the least of which is produce a "settled" list. Note, that does not mean a "pretty" list (not to take away from CosmicS efforts, because they are quite sterling). 2. One of the things a new list has to do is fit within the existing framework. That means being consistent across the board with what has preceded you. That precedent keeps the overall universe "stable". The 40K developers have to do it, software developers have to do, so do we. Thinking that "your" list is going to revolutionize Epic with all its new doodads because that is your vision is rather short term thinking. Keep in mind, all Jervis has to do is say, "No", and your're dead. Sure, you can go on and develop the list on your own web page and you can rail on about how big, bad GW wouldn't let you do your thing, but in the end, no one will really care and all your efforts will not add to the game one single bit. I know that this is sounding like a lecture and I didn't intend for it to be so, but we have to keep in mind what our charter is: produce an Elysian Drop Troop List. If you want to change the world of Epic, then, this development effort may not be your cup of chai. So, not trying to discourage or force the brainstorming, because we've had some really, really good threads going on, but I also don't want us to put the effort in that it takes to get to a point only to have the proposal shot down in 60 seconds. Something I told one of my peers during a business deal once - just because you've done it that way for 20 years, doesn't mean there isn't a better way to do it.  I think that applies here.

In the business world that I operate in, the "we've always done it that way" simultaneously makes me cringe and smile whenever I hear it. That is one of the most "opposite of smart" statements someone can make to justify why they do what they do.

So, I agree completely, in principle. However, if you walk into to your local government office and start talking about all the changes you want to make to improve things, well, I think you get the picture.

So, we are not fighting City government, we are attempting to provide and support a new program that will enhance their governmental structure.

Where we stand

1. I took a first cut at the experimental aircraft stats and points.

2. I would like us to decide the following things:

 a) Since we are going to bounce the IA3 Marauder bomber, do we want to include the Cypri Mundi Marauder Bomber in this list? Is it necessary?

 b) Validate the points and stats for both Lightning variants in the experimental rules. Tactica has already pointed out where IA3 diverges from common practice in EA, and so I need to update those stats. What about the point costs?

 c) Marauder Destroyer. We need to Epicize the stats of this aircraft. How many points should it cost? What about formation size?

 d) Do we want to include the Cypri Mundi pattern of Thunderbolt in this list? It's a cheaper fighter option, but does it add value?

The goal of answering these questions is to get us to a point where we have a list with all selections in print so that we can start playtesting the full list.

Then after we've played some games, we can start discussing the patterns/behaviors of the list and what needs to be tweaked.

So, that is where we are at.