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Cosmic Serpent	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:20 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:56 am Posts: 137 Location: Chicago	Good point about indirect fire, forgot about that rule - I would just vote to leave them at 30 cm, and call it good for the mortar range. ? Personally, my opinion on support type weapons is that they are there to add BP type support, but I do see the point because there are two versions of the support sentinel. ?Hmmm - this one causes a real problem - there are two version (rocket pods and missile launchers) - but missile launchers to me seem more like the normal sentinels in the fact they are just AT/AP weapons. ?I would like to see the support sentinels act more like WWII Nebelwerfers - rocket launchers that hang back, shoot arcing fire over the troops and add BP markers - but that whole 1 shot issue for the weapon......shrugs shoulders for now. My main reason for the Vulture/Valkyire variant list is that we are fairly limited in options from the start (not nearly as many companies, support, or upgrades as most lists. ?So to add variety and to give some customization to the list - I think adding variants works nicely. ?Although, if we did do it - I would propose you have to buy units of one type or another. ?As far as the actual modeling of them - I can live without having to make someone actually model the mini with the actual weapons loadout. If I did have to pick a version of each, I honestly don't know which one I would pick? ?The overall feel of the army lends me towards something with a little more AT punch - and basing this on modern air mobile units, figuring the Vultures are more less equivalent to Apaches - I'd say it makes more sense to make them tank hunters (equipped with lascannons, and missiles).
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jfrazell

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:55 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm Posts: 144

Just a note: at the top of the list it states that As a result, all Elysian units may be transported in Valkyries or may use the Teleport special ability. . I agree that the demo "bonus" should also be added to the firefight value.  Taking the 40K parallel, a drop in unit tosses the bomb in the shooting phase.  It has an effective launch range of 12inches (6in + deviation), which is equivalent to pistol range (not counting the ability to move 6in in the assault wave before throwing). _________________ "Advance to the Rear!"

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Honda	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	I will comment on the combined, uh, comments later. Just letting you know that I've read and will explain why I did what I did. Not that it will be the way things go, but I want you to understand my thinking process and then we'll go from there. Good comments all. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Honda

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:04 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Cosmic Serpent comments: I think Storm Trooper Company should be 0-1 (due to them being somewhat rare, even in the Elysian Army) ?Also helps get the ratio correct, should have one Storm Trooper Company per 3-4 Drop Troop Companies. I think Support Sentinel Squadrons should also be 0-1 - again, they aren't very common in the IA3 TO&E, and we should reflect that in the list. ?You shouldn't be able to show up with 4 units of support Sentinels - as they are only 1 Support Sentinel Squadron per 5 Normal Sentinel Squadrons. ?Also there are only a total of two squadrons availalable to an entire regiment, so we should really have the limitation in our list. One of the balancing mechanisms that is not favored is using the 0-X restriction, as it is felt that any unit should be balanced without a physical constraint. So, I have shied away from that approach. Also, the 0-X smacks of 40K. Initially I thought HV's would be something like four stands and two Valks - but I guess it's cool to have them more variable - although 0-2 is not a lot, but I guess that is OK.

I would try them as they are. I had a lot of fun with them in the recent battle report and they perform a role, which is important, without becoming dominant.



Why are Lightning Strike Fighters bought in groups of 4 not the standard 2?


This was an attempt to do something different. The idea again, is that the list has a role for an interceptor unit (2 a/c) and then a larger unit for strike purposes, because they will be going into harms? way and will need more a/c to sustain their effectiveness throughout the game.



Maruaders should always be bought in groups of two - not sure why we have seperated them out in the experimental formations section.


These are not yer momma?s Marauders. If you look at the stats, they are much more effective than the SL Marauder. Now, there is a ?big? rule that you do not have two weapon systems with the same name, which I have broken with the Marauder and so, perhaps if we want to include it in the list vs. the SL version, then we can borrow another WW II medium bomber name and call it the Avenger.





Elysian Drop Troop Infantry - Demo Charges are not close combat weapons - the FF value should be increased, not the CC value - IMHO. ?Demo Charges are the last thing you'd want going off in hand to hand combat, just doesn't make sense to have them reflected in CC value, but FF makes more sense. ?There isn't anything a drop trooper has that an IG troop doesn't to make them better in actual hand to hand fighting.


Personally, I?m not married to where this lands up, but let me explain why I did what I did. I envisioned the demo charge as something that is the equivalent to the WW II Bangalore torpedo that engineers and sappers used. If you look at the physical representation of the DC, it is about the size of a manhole cover, however, I would doubt that one guy is going to flip this thing like a Frisbee over 50 yards. I know about the 40K mechanics, but chose to ignore them as being unrealistic an assumption. So whether you toss it like a mega hand grenade, or carry over to where the machine gun nest/tank is, you still have to get pretty close to use it.

Hence my initial choice of putting it in the CC factor. FF just indicates a greater distance to me than CC. I am open to suggestions though.




Shouldn't there be a note on most infantry units to include Teleport? ?I would put in like Note: Teleport (may be used if not being transported in Valkyrie transport).



Teleport is a special rule that applies to the entire army. If this isn?t enough, then I can add Teleport to the notes section. I was just trying to avoid having to do this.



I personally don't think you need two versions of hardened vets. ?I would combine them into one - giving them everything (yes that sounds like we are powering them up, but I think it simplifies it, maybe give them infiltrator, sniper and have the plasma guns but do without scout? ?I'm sure we could come up with something that would work to combine them.


That?s fine. I just tossed the second version out there to see if there was any desire to see it. If not, it?ll be gone when I do the update.



Do we want to keep scouts on the Stormtroopers - as they are acting more as a full company, less like a small special forces unit in of themselves? ?I would think we would want to get rid of the scouts ability?



I do not intend to modify the ST for this list. They are defined in the SL list and as such, that has precedence.




Mortars should generate 1 BP per stand, and be four stands. ?They should not get indirect fire, and stay at 30 cm. ?They should also be 100 points with those changes. ?Just my opinion.



Let?s take this discussion over to the Mortar section.





I am of the opinion (but on the fence) that squadrons should be bought as HB versions or MM versions - keeps the record keeping to a minimum. ?Also, shouldn't they be able to Teleport as well - if not riding in a Valkyrie?



I?m fine with the either/or for the weapons. Again, I?m just testing the waters on some of these features. As far as Teleport, they do get this ability and they can be transported by Valkyries.



Support Sentinels should also not be 1 BP per two, but again 1 per. ?The onl dilema here is that most rocket pods in the game (all others that I can think of) is a one shot weapon? ?Also, why the significant increase in FF value over a normal Sentinel? ?I also think they should have the indirect fire ability - to give them the range they should have. ?Keep in mind, these are the Elysian versions of fire support (i.e. Basilisk, Manticore, etc). ?They obviously aren't nearly as strong, even if you give them 1 BP per, and indirect fire - maybe we increase their cost though? ?



Although, they are the Elysians version of Manticores and Basilisks, they are by no means anywhere near as effective, hence my preference to leave them as short range, low level BP appliers. This too, should be taken over to the Mortar section.



Just a side not - Thunderbolts should be fixed to represent their actual stats as depicted in IA1. ?

We also need to add to the list the Lascannon version of the Valkyrie, and all versions of the Vulture as included in IA3 - very important to be able to tailor your force one way or the other - and in keeping with the theme of being a specialist army, they would naturally do this to deal with whatever the mission calls for



I addressed this in the air force topic. Please see reasoning there.
.
Thanx for the feedback so far.
Tactica comments:




2. Reg HQ

should be 0-1 per army presumably.


Yes, that should be explicitly defined. If I missed that, I?ll update.



3. ?Drop Troop Company

should be '1 Elysian Commander', NOT 2 Supreme Commaders!



Yes, same as above



4. nit pick...

a. ?"Elysian Drop Troop Companies" cell is too short, make it vertically more taller to allow the header to be formatted correctly.



Will fix.




b. ?I'd make the support called contingents or something other than company. A company of sentinels would be more than 4 for example. Just bad IG grammer to call these company's. You could call them detachments, contingents or soemthing similiar.



I was borrowing from the SL terminology. If this proves to be confusing, then I?ll look into changing it.




5. Consistency Observation

a. ?Steel Legion Infantry Co = 250
? ?13 inf stands (13 units) @ 250 = 19.23 points / unit

b. ?Steel Legion Reg HQ = 500
? ?13 inf stands (13 units) @ 250 = 19.23 points / unit
? ? ?7 chimeras (7 units) @ 175 = 25 points / unit
? ? ?1 Sup Cmdr (0 units) @ 75 = 75 point SC

c. ?Drop Troop Co = 225
? ?9 inf stands (9 units) = 25 points / unit

d. ?Elysian Reg HQ = 325
? ?9 inf stands (9 units) @ 225 = 25 points / unit
? ?1 Sup Cmdr (0 units) @ 100 = 100 point SC



Consistency?well, yes, that would be nice. I used the standard non-mech infantry company as my base unit, got an average cost/unit, then dropped the unit in size. That worked out to be around 180 points. When Teleport was given to the formation, then there were comments regarding upping the cost for the ability and 225 was used, rightly or wrongly. I expect some unit cost movement to occur.



e. ?Steel Legion IG have:
? ?CC 6+
? ?FF 5+
? ?Autocannon ?R45cm, AP5/AT6 (1 for every 2)
? ?2 stands may ride in a chimera for 25 points

f. ?Drop Troop IG have:
? CC 4+
? FF 6+
? No weapon
? 2 stands may ride in Valkyrie for 40 points

I. ?So in comparison to Steel legion IG - for losing their weapon, losing 1 FF point, and paying 5.5+ points per stand, drop troop infantry gain +2 CC and the right to ride a valkyrie that they still pay for. Is this right?


Um, yeah. Again, see above. Not saying this is correct, only that it was the starting point. As stated previously , after two games, the drop companies see a little high in cost. How high needs to be determined.




II. ?Also, why do Elysians pay 25 more points for their Supreme Commander than Steel Legion IG?


In the Tau discussions, +100 pts was regularly used for SC cost. I just borrowed that.



6. ?Note under DROP TROOP COMPANY UPGRADES

The note says that the Fire Support Platoon may only be taken by the Reg HQ

Can anyone take the Mortar Platoon? Isn't it just as rare as the Fire Support Platoon?



I understand where you are coming from. I made the FS Plt the equivalent to all the Special Weapons squads the Company commander can take. I didn?t think about the mortars that way, but to be consistent, they should only be taken by the RHQ to be consistent.



[b]7. ?Hardened Vets

There's two hardened vet data sheets - which is correct?



They?re both correct. I only do correct things.

I put two in there so that we could discuss. It was an idea I had and I was floating it by to see if there was an interest in having two different versions of HV.




8. ?Demo Charges
Shouldn't Demo Charges be reflected in FF and not the CC value?

The reason is the device is thrown, not held or swung

Besides - what IG on the face of any world wants to be in base to base with the enemy!



See response to Cosmic Serpents comments.




9. ?Commissars

Where's the reference to the commissar rule?



Just missed it.



10. ?Your missing a support sentinel
The missle sentinel that can fire indirect AT fire... see the appropriate thread.




Not missing, purposely left off. For the time being, I would like us to try to balance out three Sentinel versions, given that we have a lot of moving parts at this time. We?ll keep it on the plate, but address it later.



11. ?Aircraft
I'd eliminate the Cypri Mundi Thunderbolt and Maurader from this list.

This list is meant to 'highlight the forgeworld' gear. Its specifically designed to accent the craft of Forgeworld. To put the cypri mundi aircraft in as the base and put the actual forgeworld craft in as experimental is a bit out of character.

Especially since FW IA3 doesn't even recognize the Cypri Mundi aircraft as associated with the Elysians!



Take a deep breath and let it out slowly. J

Ok, I included the SL aircraft so that the working list would have some air assets to play with. We?re going to stage changes and I didn?t really think we?d get the aircraft in the experimental section sorted out in just a few days. If we do great, but I?m expecting that discussion to go on for a little while.

So, rather than leave all a/c off, you get what is already approved. They aren?t the final a/c versions.



12. ?Experimental Hellstrikes
Underwing rockets on the thunderbolt are hellstrikes but for aircraft.

If you are going to make the experimental rockets "underwing" then remove the "one-shot".

In Epic A, all aircraft leave the table to rearm and refuel. That's part of the reason why BM are always removed when aircraft come back on the field or not.



The Lighting/Marauder stats in the list come directly from IA3. I didn?t not change them. IA3 is the source book (good or bad), so when they say ?One shot?, I say ?One shot?. Then if you have a gripe, you can take it up with Warwick. J




13. ?Teleport
What happened to the Teleport Option for ... almost everything?



See above.

Again, thanx for taking the time to look at the list. That's how it will get better.