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The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
Jaldon
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:13 am 
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Sorry been down with the Flu for the last couple of days, and we have playtested similar armies using different combinations of Common Broods (All Ravaner, Hormagaunt/Termagaunt Mix, All Termagaunt). In all cases we achieved similar results, though not quite as drastic as the three posted reports.

Part of the problem is the 2xTW formation for 100pts, and the other part of the problem is the cheap cost of the Common Brood Creatures. Both of which I am going to address in a moment.

While some may remark about the use of a 4'x4' table, as was done in the reports, we found it made little difference to the results as we achieved similar results using a 4'x6' table.

Others may remark about the force selection of the opponents in the three reports, being they were firepower low, or one dimensional in concept, or low in unit count. Again we had opponents that brought the opposites of the above, and while it did result in a racking up of many more Nid bodies in the dead tray, it didn't change the victory result (Which IS important).

No I am not knocking the three reports, in fact thank you very much, rather I am trying to head off anyone saying the results weren't valid because of table size of enemy force selection. We can verify the similar results were achieved by us last week, before I got sick, using a 4'x6' table and different common brood creature combinations.

Seems that the 2xTW is going to disappear from the list of Synapse Groups, though I may keep it as a possible upgrade to a group.

I am at the moment tossing around a 5pt increase across the board for the Commons rather then a cap of some kind on the number that can be purchased.
Term. 15pts
Horm. 20pts
Ravn. 25pts
Garg. 25pts

Once again thank you very much for the fine reports, and pics, they have been a great help.

Also, last weekends experiences showed a possible need to raise the Zoanthrope to 50pts.

All thoughts go here, and thanks all.......

Jaldon :p

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lilith
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:50 am 
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Uhm why zoan 50? i think now is ok ;isn't really powerfull and it count on support brood so you can't buy too much of them otherwise you can't deploy any biotanks
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tneva82
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:59 pm 
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Agreed on both objections. Hormies 20, raveners 25 would make ravener upgrade sort of automatic choise. FF5+ alone would be worth it. Nevermind armour. Only downsize would be lesser spawnability(is that even a word?-) but I think gains outweight drawbacks at those point levels.

Also zoanthropes to 50pts seem bit off odd move concidering you are talking about 15cm move LV with 30cm weapon(and not particulary awesome AA weapon to boot). Tyranid abilities sure have price for him!

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Chroma
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:41 pm 
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Quote (tneva82 @ 11 Mar. 2006 (11:59))
Agreed on both objections. Hormies 20, raveners 25 would make ravener upgrade sort of automatic choise. FF5+ alone would be worth it. Nevermind armour. Only downsize would be lesser spawnability(is that even a word?-) but I think gains outweight drawbacks at those point levels.

Lacking a FF attack is a big weakness for the Hormagaunts and I think having both Gaunt types at 15 points has been, realtively, fine for a good chunk of the playtest and should probably stay that way.  At 20 points, even with the LV "weakness", Raveners are just so much better.

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tneva82
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:55 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 11 Mar. 2006 (13:41))
Lacking a FF attack is a big weakness for the Hormagaunts and I think having both Gaunt types at 15 points has been, realtively, fine for a good chunk of the playtest and should probably stay that way.  At 20 points, even with the LV "weakness", Raveners are just so much better.

Yep. Lack of FF is big pain in epic. Even with their high speed infiltrators whatever tyranids can often find themselves fire fighting. Simply long range charge, small(but extremely tough) target unit, enemy charges you, skimmers...

Complete lack of FF is major weakness.

As I said. 5 pts would be worth it for FF of ravener alone...Nevermind armour save...

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Markconz
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:01 pm 
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The lack of FF for hormis can make them pretty worthless against Eldar (and I presume Tau). No more the 15pts I think. They are the CC, termis the FF.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:48 am 
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That's why I like this group, they ain't afraid to tell the AC he is off his rocker :(8:

Zoanthrope: There have been some complaints from players here about 'inability' to supress the Zoanthrope AA screen (surprise), but at the same time I really don't want to change them. On a lark I thought I'd toss the idea off you guys to see what came out the other end.

My response to them here was I would 'look' into it, but in the meantime, tell me why you are having a problem with an AA weapon that is one shot 5+ and only 30cm range?

Sounding done, I figured you guys would respond the way you did. They still stand at 35pts a pop. Thank You for your support.

Shane and Jesse brought up an interesting point that I would like all of you to consider, and they are planning on giving it a try (I am still too ill to play, old farts like me take longer to get over the flu :oops: ).

Basically it is going to be a whole sheep load of Termagaunts vs 10xIG Infantry Companies w/2xFS Platoons to round it out to 2,700 points (That would be 138xstands of IG Grunts and 10 Activations)

Their point is that both the Orks and the IG can do a similar one trick poney to the Termagaunt Terror, the question is, is it enough to make up for the NO BMs thing on the Nids.

For now scale back and how bout.................
Termagaunt/Hormogaunt 15pts
Ravener 20pts
Gargoyle 20pts

Remember I am still feeling the flu bug so be kind.......

Thanks All

Jaldon

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tneva82
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:41 am 
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Raveners 20 pts? I would pretty much pay that 5 pts for hormagaunt any day for FF5+ and armour save.

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Chroma
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 12 Mar. 2006 (02:48))
For now scale back and how bout.................
Termagaunt/Hormogaunt 15pts
Ravener 20pts
Gargoyle 20pts

Raveners really need to be the most expensive Common brood, regardless of their Brood (2) or if they become LV or what-have-you.  

At 20 points, why take anything else?

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Jaldon
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:35 am 
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I think you misunderstood my remark Hena, I shouldn't try to think when I am sick, this remark..........

"My response to them here was I would 'look' into it, but in the meantime, tell me why you are having a problem with an AA weapon that is one shot 5+ and only 30cm range?"

Was what I said to the non-Nid players in the group I game with, it wasn't intended as a remark to the fine fellows here on the forum working on the Nids. Sorta like a "Are you kidding me, what about Fire Prisims or Hunters and you guys are complaining about Zoanthropes!" kinda thing.

Like I said I shouldn't try to post rational thoughts when I am not well............It should have been
Ravener 25pts
Gargoyle 20pts
Term/Horma 15pts

As for stats, we can work around those as we see fit, for the moment I am simply trying to address the Term/Horma/Rav Terror and trying to decide what the point levels for these Brood Creatures should be.

Well sorry but I am going to go back to bed, still not on top of my game, Doc says I should be doing better by Weds, and if I am not to come back in to see him...............Wonder is he is just trying to lift some more dough out of my pocket :alien:

Jaldon :p

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Tactica
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:47 am 
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Jaldon,

Hope you get to feeling better.

I think Hena has it right - *IF* Zoanthroapes go up, (and not saying that I'm convinced that they should) then I think 40 is the most they should get too.

I do admit that they provide a very adequate AA umbrella when coupled with spawn. 10-14 really covers the field.

At 35 points, 10 of them equate to 350. That would be the equivilent of 7 hydras in points. Hydras could put 14 shots in the air a turn if left unscathed. Zoanthropes have spawn and can fight in combat. Hydras have a better AP and longer range by 15cm.

Spawning requires you don't move but can move the zoanthropes all over the field and even if all 10 die, they can all come back next turn making their impact exponential on the enemy shooting.

If Zoanthroapes were 40 points, they'd still be a good buy.

So far, I'm not convinced the zoanthroapes need to change from 35 each, but I'm leaning towards 40 points in a list that can spawn them back. 5 points on this unit, and 5 points on that unit definitely adds up.

With the other changes you are already making, I'd leave the Zoa's at 35 points for now and observe how the other changes impact the list.

just my thoughts.

cheers,

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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Termagaunt/Hormogaunt/Ravaner Terror
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:46 pm 
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The point costs sound good, Jaldon (the 15/15/20/25 version).

I'm also very interested in the outcome versus other true horde armies.  I've been tempted to run similar army lists to see what happens.  I've long thought that an Eldar list of mostly Guardians with 1 heavy platform in each to produce BMs would be wicked.  Even with Aspects to provide an Autarch, it would be 15 activations and 120+ units.

I still have some concerns.  Even if the results are different, the horde of tooth and claw is supposed to be a typical Nid force.  I think balancing it against less-extreme army compositions is a necessity.  The problem I see is that you may end up in a situation where a moderate amount of broods isn't viable, requiring either an all-out horde or an army heavy on elite units.

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