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V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
CyberShadow
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:06 am 
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There are currently a few discrepancies between the Scorpionfish and Dragonfish, and there were comments as to whether these were justified, as well as the general load-out of the Dragonfish.

For example, they have different speeds, which I would like to rectify and give them both a speed of 25cm. I dont want to make major changes to the Dragonfish, but suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks.

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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:13 am 
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As the Dragonfish is an upgrade to the Scorpionfish, I think their relative uses should be relatively similiar.

Therefore, speed match does make sense.

Also, Weapon Load out - however manipulated, should basically be 'long range support' from the Dragonfish like it is on the Scorpions IMHO.

I think Honda... or maybe it was baronp or Cw ... had some good ideas about the worthwhile loadout on the Dragonfish some time ago.

Cheers,




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clausewitz
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:33 am 
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Yes, I thought that the Scorpionfish and Dragonfish firepower didnt mesh well.  The Dragonfish is more like a big Stingray, having better AP fire than AT fire.  A Scorpionfish can muster 5 AT shots, the Dragonfish only 2.

Also, its worth noting that the "Hunter Missile" that the Dragonfish and Scorpionfish wield has been changed on the Skyray.  Normally EA tries to avoid same name weapons with different stats.
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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:07 am 
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Cw - yep, (different stat same name) that's a big no-no with JJ!

So who was it that had proposed a Dragonfish change?


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clausewitz
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Well, I had suggested that the Dragonfish just be a Scorpionfish with Supreme Commander.  With the Scorpionfish being 200 points that means for the extra 100 points you get Supreme Commander and the Tau Deflector Shield.
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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:16 pm 
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OK - Honda may hate me on this one, but...

I can't get the Scorpionfish formation to work. There - I said it. :p

For the life of me, I can't get these things working in my games the way they are supposed to. When I attempt to use this thing, IG with indirect fire that goes from one end of the board to the other, pop-up 120cm missles from valkyries, Eldar long range macro-weapons with hit and run, 150cm defiler ordinance, etc... I ALWAYS seem to generate blast markers and activation success with this formation seems a bit hit and miss.

Overall, I'm very displeased with the results yielded from my scorpionfish. At 200 points each - I expect results! I never seem to get to the 300 point dragonfish becaue I can never swallow the 200 point pill that the Scorpionfish demands.

When I think 200 points of pain, I think Shadowsword, Eldar Vampire, AX-1-0 (ehem...) and the alike. *to me* the scorpionfish just isn't holding its own in this category.

Considering we don't have the host of special rules that the Eldar do receive (spirit stones, hit and run, wraithgate on SHT) the Engines of Vaul SHT are only 50 more points with these other bonus' - when you remove these Eldar rules - is the Tau Scorpionfish even in the same league as Void Spinner, Cobra or Scorpion Eldar SHT? After all the Eldar are still getting - Lance, Pulse, Barrage Points TK weapons, etc on these things!

PS - don't get me wrong here, I'm not picking on the Eldar or 90cm TK IG shadowsword that hits on 2+, I think they got it right. These tanks are mean and justify the 200 points (250 for the Eldar due to all the goody weapon upgrades) and the IG tank is cheaper when fielded in a SHT Co...

However, I just don't see how our Scorpionfish stacks up in this class.

As a result, I don't feel like the scorpion is either A) worth the current points or B) is delivering the payload one would expect for the investment.

The Scorpionfish is supposed to be our heavy hitter gun boat full of missles that can deliver the pain from afar. Its the Tau version of heavy artillery. But it really doesn't deliver 'big results' it delivers the same weaponry that I can get on the rest of my army, the same missles, the same payload, the same 6+ to hit unless their are markers nearby. Not really a big hitter - just more missles from one unit. envoke ?Homer: "woo-hoo!" :/

For my healthy 200 points, I have a missle carrier that is rather limited in effectiveness unless there's another formation (more points) marking something for it. Hmm... then should this be 200 points when the Shadowsword can just punch a hole in something... or when the Eldar Vampire can deliver some real heat - or troops to a hot zone and deliver great FF covering fire - or when EoV are striding around the field... etc?

The 75cm max range that it has doesn't distinquish itself in a list where the tanks all have 75cm. Its basically more of the same when it comes to range - so how much long range support is this really delivering? Couple that with IG tabletop ranges, Eldar hit&run ranges at 35cm+60cm = 95cm Pulse MW ranges, 120cm At2+ hellstrike ranges, defiler indirect 150cm ranges - our "long range artillery" really isn't long range at all... worse yet...

The the speed of the Scorpionfish formation is lessor than a Hammerhead, Skyray, or Stingray tanks in the same army. These lessor tanks all move faster and are carrying many of the same weapons as the scorpionfish. So when you factor in moving once forward and then firing on the enemy - the net result is a shorter ranged potential area of affect from our Scorpionfish "long range artillery support" than our main battle tanks as movement + firing range enters the equation.

Now the Dragonfish is a neat concept - SC on board and all... however, his ride is even less of a long range artillery piece. Now I have a 300 point model that does even less to support my force than the already underperforming Scorpionfish, but I get a reroll... :/

So - when considering the Dragonfish, it never makes the cut in my 'real' non-test games.

OK - I've defaced the beast. I've slandered its name and wholesome nature. I've spit blasphemy about our sacred of all ginormous missile laden carrier - however, its my feelings on the topic.

Feel free to verbally castrate me, but this has been on my mind for some time. For better or worse, at least I've said my peace. :p

Cheers,




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CyberShadow
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:06 pm 
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OK, so, do the Scorpionfish (and therefore the Dragonfish) need a re-write? I like the concept of these things very much and I would like to keep them in. How much of a change could you guys put up with?

My proposition:

1. We keep the Scorpionfish in for the next Vault version, but temporarily remove the Dragonfish.

2. We decide exactly what we are looking for in a Scorpionfish, and in the Dragonfish.

3. I go away and throw something together (this is something that I would like to get my teeth into).

4. We review and discuss as normal.

Comments?

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Honda
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:11 pm 
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However, I just don't see how our Scorpionfish stacks up in this class.

As a result, I don't feel like the scorpion is either A) worth the current points or B) is delivering the payload one would expect for the investment.



After some of my more recent games, I'd have to agree with these sentiments.

I think what colored my perceptions earlier were games against SM and Bugs. When you start throwing in races that have longer ranged weapons, then the ScF/DrF seem to come up short.

Of late, I have been more inclined to take an upgraded AMHC vs. my previous ScF + DrF combo.

What this vehicle does have going for it is toughness, so that should be worth something as they (at least in my case) tend to stay around a long time, but if you're looking to capitalize early in the game, then an upgraded AMHC gives you more shots quicker.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:28 pm 
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The scorpionfish seems like the tau version of a Baneblade and looks ok for 200 points but the IG super heavies when they come in a company you get 100 points reduction.

I don't think that the Scfish and Drfish combo is worth 500 points and maybe having a reduction on the points cost for two in a contingent or even having 3 Scfish for 500points and then the option to upgrade one to a Drfish.
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Tactica
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:59 pm 
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CS,

I'd say we need to clearly define the role of the tank and go from there. If we simply look at our current guiding flavor text, its a bit all over the board... I'll cut and paste the key points which allow me to derive the aforementioned conclusion:

...After the shock of facing Imperial Super-heavy tanks
...developing their own Super-heavy gunships.
...the Orca Dropship has been heavily armed and armoured,
...surfacebound skimmer.
...full complement of [all missile types]
...no single main weapon
...enabling it to engage any type of threat.
...flexibility
...major asset
...slower than the majority of Tau units,
...at the back of the Tau army
...anchoring the defences like a solid rock.

So its heavily armed and armored, but has no main weapon system and yet its a gunship.

Its slow but is a skimmer and can be flexible on the field.

Its capable of engage any kind of threat, but does so from the back of the Tau army while anchoring the defenses.

Its somehow a major asset - yet players don't seem to value it much.

Back to the point - this thing seems to have the flavor text of 'look - I can do it all, front line, flexible, tons of guns, you can rely on me - I am the anchor of your army too and will defend you from the back?!'

What?

I think the source of the problem is that we don't have a clear documented picture of what the thing is supposed to do. Presently - it sounds like it does it all - yet ironically, it does none of it well for the cost. I also don't really think people envision a 'slower' piece realistically 'doing it all'.

If its really meant to be a front line engaging piece - fine, speed and weapon changes are probably in order and markerlights are justified (but one wonders why we are looking at yet another front line piece as its a SHT amongst quicker, faster, and more agile pieces...)

If its meant be the artillery piece, fine - speed is probably fine. Removal of markerlights and other insignificant weapon systems are probably in order in this case. A boost to other weapons firepower and range are also probably justified for consideration in this role.

Whatever kind of missile frigate its supposed to be - I'm OK with it, lets just get a clear picture of where this thing operates on the field and make it good at doing that job, vs. trying to work with a piece that's somehow supposed to do it all.

As far as the vault is concerned, we can either try to get the Scorpion in good working order (see above) or we could drop the points of the existing - say 25 points, and work on it more over the coming months. In this mode, I'd leave the dragonfish in at +100 though. At least people know its coming this way.

Its unrealistic to expect a rework of the Scorpion before the vault update. If its going to be support/anchor/artillery - it needs better range with a single move + weapon range than the MBT in the list... but I'm repeating the above already. Anyway, i think its goint to take some time to balance IMHO.

Cheers,




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Honda
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:48 pm 
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I don't think that the Scfish and Drfish combo is worth 500 points and maybe having a reduction on the points cost for two in a contingent or even having 3 Scfish for 500points and then the option to upgrade one to a Drfish.


I think this idea is worth pursuing.

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dysartes
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:55 am 
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It sounds like the SFish is more akin to the Baneblade than the Shadowsword - would this seem a fair comparison of set-up/role?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:00 am 
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The idea of dropping the dragonfish (temporarily or permanently) and keeping the supreme commander upgrade + shield for a scorpion looks interesting, at least until the scorpion is figured out.

I thought with the Tau long range support was a primarily Air caste task? Otherwise Tactica sums it up pretty well, if its the same range as everyone, yet supports them it would have to move at the same speed, if it was slower and provides support from the rear it needs long range. Is there anything long ranged appart from a Heavy Railcannon?
So is it a choice between faster and 75cm range or slower and long ranged main gun (ta-da, Shadowsword).

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HecklerMD
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:17 am 
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I've had an idea kicking around in my head for a while re: the ScF, mostly seeded by my inability to picture a use for the unit (Id rather take Stingrays +Skyray) and what I know about various RL millitary missile systems, specificly US Navy vertical launch systems...

Its a rough idea, so feel free to chip away at it...

Dropping all weps but the 2x TL Missile Pod, and taking 4 (3?) "Flexible Missile Launchers" (FML), each of which can launch 1 Seeker Missile OR 1 Submunitions Missile OR 1 Tracer Missile, per turn, players choice.  Tracer missiles are limited to "One-Shot" per FML.  I'm not concerned about the loss of the Hunter missile, Tau have fine AA and Interceptors as it is.

Other stats (RA, MLs, Ect...) can stay the same, or not.  I think I'd reccommend 5+ RA, to emphasize the need and ability to avoid LOS.  Points will need a looking at, but I think we should aim for 200 points and adjust other stats to match.  Needless to say, ML coverage is a must.  Makes the unit a real behind the scenes (cover) shooter, and allows the Tau player to use it in a variety or roles (Anti-Inf, Anti Armor, Anti RA/WE) without the "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none" thing.

It would need some clever wording to make the "One-Shot Tracer" thing clear, however it should not need any new "special rules", just some clear unit notes at the bottom of the unit entry.

I dont know how it would integrate any SC, however, I am open to suggestions.

Fire Away...
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thurse
 Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:26 pm 
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I agree with what was said here, and think that the SC should bring something different to the army list, as do for example all the engines of vaul ( well except the void spinner ).

However, before thinking about unit modifications, I would be very happy to know if/how some players make an efficient use of them.
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