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V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade
CyberShadow	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:49 pm
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9349 Location: Singapore	I think that this will be a fairly uncontroversial topic. Proposition Change the Swordfish upgrade from: Replace 1-2 Hammerhead Gunships with Swordfish; +25 points each To: Replace up to two Hammerhead Gunships with Swordfish (the same points are paid even if the player selects to only upgrade one Hammerhead); +25 points _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:05 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	still looks good to me CS. _________________ Rob
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:44 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Bargin, I'd say you would see swordfish in every non ion hammerhead formation for that. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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nealhunt	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:07 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	It's a 12.5 point upgrade on a maximum of 2 units that does not change the primary role of the unit.  Usually a variant is equal points and has a significantly different battlefield role.  This is neither. It has, to the best of anyone's knowledge, no actual basis in fluff beyond an example in the VDR. Is it really needed? _________________ Neal
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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:07 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Many tau players have come to love the Swordfish. For the record - there's no core design fluff for the Swordfish, Stingray, Scorpionfish, Dragonfish, or Moray. Perhaps we should just scrap them all? Of all of these - at least GW has printed the Swordfish 1) in WD as part of a VDR and 2) The Spanish GW site has the model on their website with a write up. None of the others even have that. E:A as we know introduces new vessels from the core design. In many devleopers minds at GW - its been said before that Epic is somewhat of a 40K testing ground even. So if fluff is going to be the only motivator for us to keep something like the Swordfish in - then we need to cut lots of stuff. Tau players have proven to like the Swordfish - so regarding "the point in the list," that's been established for many versions of the list now. Its original JG hommage for his E:A vision not to mention Player demand if nothing more. Therefore, moving on and to bring back to the point of the thread - at 25 points on top of the base HH for 1 its too high. 12.5 seems about right to those of us that have tried to field it. So I *for one* am for the change to see if it works. LOL - all the hypotheticals kill me. If "we see swordfish in every non-ionhead formation..." Blanket hypothetical statements like this really don't help anything and only cause frustration to those who've put a lot of time and contributed to the list or the unit. Even if the statement was somehow true - if it's balanced, so what? How does the frequency of one unit *if* another formation is taken somehow impact the list as a whole? I like Rail-head formations and I like ion-head formations. I want to like taking the swordfish - right now, I cannot. Its cost prohibitive. CS's change for v4.4 may afford me a new perspective. I'd at least like to try it. _________________ Rob
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CyberShadow	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:52 am
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9349 Location: Singapore	Quote (nealhunt @ 02 Mar. 2006 (15:07)) It's a 12.5 point upgrade on a maximum of 2 units that does not change the primary role of the unit. ?Usually a variant is equal points and has a significantly different battlefield role. ?This is neither. It has, to the best of anyone's knowledge, no actual basis in fluff beyond an example in the VDR. Is it really needed? Neal. Aside from the fact that the Swordfish is just plain cool,    , it just has the edge over the standard Hammerhead for armour hunting. I think that it does change the role of the formation. The Hammerhead formation can be used in a number of ways, and acts both as general support and front line armour. Including the Swordfish makes the formation more of a hunter killer anti-armour formation. (In my eyes, anyway.) It was initially felt that the 25 points for a single upgraded vehicle was too expensive for the unit upgrade, particularly since the upgrade does not add units to the formation, keeping the units at the same numbers. Much of the Tau list has no actual basis beyond the fluff, and to a certain extent we are making stuff up as we go along (which is one of the main attractions of the list for me). That said, we are constrained by consistency and some basic logic. Whether it is seriously needed or not is a matter of personal opinion. My view is that it adds something to the HH formation and makes a nice focal point of a formation, as well as filling the gap between 'line tanks' and the SHT 'beasts'. _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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nealhunt	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:49 am
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	I think that it does change the role of the formation. The Hammerhead formation can be used in a number of ways, and acts both as general support and front line armour. Including the Swordfish makes the formation more of a hunter killer anti-armour formation. (In my eyes, anyway.) Okay.  I just don't see that it makes an appreciable difference in play style. _________________ Neal

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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:13 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Sounds like we have resolution on this one then too! Progress = "Yay!" cheers, _________________ Rob
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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:58 am

Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London

Quote (Tactica @ 02 Mar. 2006 (16:07)) LOL - all the hypotheticals kill me. If "we see swordfish in every non-ionhead formation..." Well its true. If you have a balanced point wise upgrage for a formation that makes it better at what it does you would be mad not to have it. You lose nothing points effiecency wise. If it is as good to have Hamerheads plus swordfish as it is to have just hammerheads, go for the extra firepower. Can you tell me - other than you don't have 25 points, why you wouldn't take it. Its nothing to do with balance. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x

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CyberShadow	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:21 pm
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9349 Location: Singapore	Just to follow up... The upgrade represents one third of the units in the formation. I think that this does represent a change of function, even at the level of a single upgrade slot. However, if anyone has suggestions on ways to make the unit more distinct, I would be happy to hear them for future developments. As for 'why not take it', well you could say the same thing for any upgrade. Why not take a Marine Commander in every formation, aside from the issue of points? Why not add a Hunter to every formation, if not for points? I am not trying to be flippant here, but the issue of the upgrade being too cheap, and being a 'no brainer' if free are different. I think that the upgrade was currently under used and overpriced. I will try it at the suggested level and if this doesnt work, we can review. I would like to keep a close eye on how many formations dont take the upgrade, and why. Thanks. _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:06 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Its not that CS. First off how does it change the formation? It makes it better at tank hunting. I didn't realise they did anything else, I thought they were anti armour with some mess up infantry thrown in. The swordfish seems to still do that. As to marine commanders, well they do appear in every place where they increase the effiecency of the unit. When was the last time you were air assualted by a bunch of assualt marines that didn't have one? A hunter is for air defence - you don't get marine air defence formations. Unless I'm reading the hammerhead wrong its just a better railcannon hammerhead, getting a better main gun and swapping its 30cm AP4+ ignore cover missiles for Twin-linked Missile Pods 45cm AP4+/AT4+ and Burst Cannon 15cm AP5+. If anything better against infantry to and a lot better verses armour. Its like swapping out one model of panzer for the next one up with the bigger gun. What am I missing? I'm not saying its overpriced or unbalanced, I wouldn't know without testing it. But I do know if I could cheaply upgrade a Leman Russ to a Vanquisher and get the same sorts of returns I would. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:18 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (CyberShadow @ 03 Mar. 2006 (05:21)) I think that the upgrade was currently under used and overpriced. I will try it at the suggested level and if this doesnt work, we can review. I would like to keep a close eye on how many formations dont take the upgrade, and why. Thanks. Brilliant plan for moving forward CS. Cheers for the summary and weighing in, _________________ Rob

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nealhunt

Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:15 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

The upgrade represents one third of the units in the formation. I think that this does represent a change of function, Has the presence of a Swordfish actually ever significantly changed your tactical decisions with respect to a HH formation? You're talking about, at ranges with the absolute maximum difference in firepower types, trading 1 AP hit for just over 1 AT hit.  In a formation of 6, you are essentially going from 4AT/3AP to 5/2.  That's a moderate difference, but it also assumes the max potential disparity.  In a larger formation or at varying ranges, the proportional difference will be significantly less. _________________ Neal

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CyberShadow	Post subject: V4.4 - Swordfish Upgrade Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:52 pm
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9349 Location: Singapore	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 03 Mar. 2006 (15:06)) If anything better against infantry to and a lot better verses armour. Its like swapping out one model of panzer for the next one up with the bigger gun. I guess that I dont see the issue here. Either the Swordfish enhances the formation by making it 'better' against one or more targets, or it doesnt seem to make a contribution to the role of the formation. For my mind, these two views are almost opposite (and I stress the word 'almost' here). The Hammerhead formation does, sometimes by necessity, perform a general role (at least, I do). As the heaviest cadre available, it can be sent in, provide supporting guided missile fire, hit and relocate and a variety of other missions that the other two cadres either cant do, or cant do as well. For me, the Swordfish provides a centre-piece for the formation. It is an upgrade, it is paid for and it does provide enhancements. It is primarily a tank hunter, although I acknowledge that it is perfectly able to hit most targets. Like most upgrades, it may seem cheap, but after three upgrades we are into 75 points worth, and at this point (in my mind) there are better things to spend the additional points on. I guess that I just fail to see the issue here. To me, the Swordfish represents the 'command tank' in function (but without the 'command' aspect!    ). It may transpire that they crop up everywhere, in which case I will track it and we can make the alterations. Bear in mind that it is the same cost as the Networked Drone upgrade. I have to say that the Swordfish upgrade does change my perception of the formation, at least before the game. If I have two formations, and only one has a Swordfish, that will affect how I use them. (Now, I am not saying that this is not partially due to the perception of the unit, rather than  cold facts and logic! ) _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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