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E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Tactica

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:48 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 02 Mar. 2006 (06:01))

For example, the Tau have powerful air units, but in some sense these are around to compensate for the lack of titans.

I know this was just an example CS, but I would also add - such lists are also compensating for lack of air-assaults or lack of ground assaults in the army as a whole.

Other lists can do nasty ugly things with air-assaults. The race mentioned in your example cannot air-assault with a hope of comparable results.

Firepower is such army's response.

Cheers,

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Legion 4

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:20 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

CAS only ... :;):

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:48 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Something from an email with Ginger (we aren't really the same person you know, he just had the misfortune of meeting me and is something of an air fan himself).

- 1x unarmoured microlight A/c with 1x AP6+ for 50 points
- 1x armoured fighter with 4x 5+AP/AT guns for 200 points
- 1x (super-giant-mega- flying thing) with 15X MW 4+ for 1000 points

On paper, for 1000 points,
Option a) can load 20 BMs, and possible hit 3x Total 23 BM
Option b) can load 5 BMs and shoot a further 13 BMs Total 21BM
Option c) can lay 1 BM, and shoot 7 MW hits Total 8 BM

But are they overpowered??
>>>>>>>>

The problem with air power and lots of effective points is how to combat it. You have flak and interceptors, if you shut them down up goes your effectiveness. So do you point for this 'free reign' and then against what list?
As a result it costs a lot - which creates a list designed to deliever it. And so on.
Ground units can be powerful as everything can effect it - if you shut it all down you have won. However air can only be targeted by a few things and so to fight such a beast you have to fight fire with fire, hence the arms race and the game being set around air not air supporting ground.

Re above examples they all are if they can attack outside of flaks range. If they are range 15cm good luck as you can rarely supress all the flak at that range. Even so you have a big activation advantage. The big beast is poor - its underpowered as a bunch of tigersharks would do more kills for the same points (and have the activations)

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Ginger

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:03 pm

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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
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OK

I hadn't intended that part of the discussion to happen yet, ?

but since it has, the logic went as follows:-

a) As there apparently is a degree of "creep", does it matter?
The majority of comments from this very small straw poll seem to think that it does, but only if it unbalances the game or moves it away from the core principles (ground game)

b) If it does matter, what element(s) cause that concern (or are considered overpowered)?
This boils down to how Air interacts with the ground game, of which there are three elements
- Shooting (CAS??),
- Assault
- Activations.
The issue here is does any one element affect the situation more than the others, or is it the combination of things that is the critical factor?

c) For these given elements, what are the limits / ranges that would be considered appropriate?
Now read the examples given in TRC post! ? :(8:

Would 20 very weak individual units buzzing round be considered overpowered (Activation advantage), and if so, what limit would be appropriate?
Would a single HUGE unit be over powered (shooting - guaranteed unit destruction) - or what is a reasonable limit to the number of "air dice"?
Are 5x powerfull A/c overpowered? (akin to TRC's "5 aces" - combination of elements), or how do these combine, and what are the limits here?
Other examples would have to include Transport - how many unit slots makes it overpowered? etc

The final question is much harder to frame or answer, but is something like :-

d) How are these elements / concerns exacerbated by the current ruleset?
Essentially, this is where elements that counter the effect get included like the turn sequence, AA (air and ground) etc - and consequently begs the question of what elements and how much etc.

Cheers

Ginger

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Tactica

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:04 pm

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Hena,

Quote (Hena @ 02 Mar. 2006 (14:13))

So... what should the Nids get for not having transports or aircrafts? Yes there is harridan and vituperator, but that combo takes almost 2/3 of the synapse section. And the transport area is not that large in them. Tyranid brood need to attack en masse and not in small forces.

All units in all formations ignore all blast markers.

All synapse can spawn more dead units

Units that were on one side of the field can reconstitute a formation on another side of the field - so where there were no guns, suddenly zoanthropes everywhere.

Cheers,

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Rob

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Legion 4

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:32 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

And FYI - CAS = Close Air Support ... :;):

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Markconz

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:13 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

Quote (Tactica @ 03 Mar. 2006 (14:04))

Units that were on one side of the field can reconstitute a formation on another side of the field - so where there were no guns, suddenly zoanthropes everywhere.

Wait for the air attack... then spawn a big zoanthrope AA park right underneath it and destroy it on the disengage move...

Nasty...

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Ginger

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:33 pm

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L4

You said the same thing in TRC "revised" air rules discussion - could you elaborate a little

Cheers

Ginger

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Legion 4

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:26 am

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CAS is Close Air Support = aircraft attacking ground targets ... ?We don't play Air2Air = Dogfights - aircraft attacking aircraft. ?We call in CAS (Activate a flight of aircraft), roll for it as in SM1 Off Board Support; CAS ingresses to Target; ADA/Flak shoots; surviving CAS attacks/drops ordinance/makes gun run/strafes ... CAS egresses off board (may get Flak on way out), Aircraft rearm & refit (as in E40K) ... simple ... move to next activation ... Again, sometimes you guys make it to hard ... (BTW, as an Air Ops Officer in the 101, I graduated from USAF Air/Ground School and actually called in CAS (A-10s mostly) ... :;):

So I'm not just making this up ! :laugh:

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Ginger

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:17 am

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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
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Location: London, UK

Thanks for the insight L4. Very interesting comments

Could I check a little further (hoping you won't reveal any state secrets and have to kill me ?

)

1) Am I right that in every war since Korea, we have generally enjoyed air superiority by and large? ?(even in Vietnam, where there was a degree of Air to Air combat over the bay of Tonkin IIRC). If so, you are correct in your definition of CAS as having no air to air, but only in so far as the opposition were unable to mount an effective air defence, or that defence was prevented from engaging the CAS formations.

2) If any air interception did occur, when would it be more likely to occur - some time before the CAS action, or after it? (I am presuming it would happen outside the range of the AA if only to avoid friendly fire!).

Cheers

Ginger

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Legion 4

Post subject: E:A Air wars - "arms race"

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:53 am

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O.K., lets go a little deeper ...

?Yes, generally since '44 the US has enjoyed air superiority ! ?CAP = Combat Air Patrol, also known as MiG CAP after WWII, and sometimes even "High Guard" during WWII. ?CAP is Air2Air. ?CAP intercepts OPFOR/enemy Fighters to open the way for your strike aircraft or CAS. ?CAS supports the ground forces directly by attacking enemy ground targets/forces. ?The anatomy of an Air Strike in Vietnam and a paradigm we have generally used ever since, starts as a Strike Package. ?After recon has gone in or ground units call in CAS directly, the lead element is an anti-AAA/ADA element (known as an "Iron Hand" Mission) whose function is to suppress enemy Flak/SAMs. ?CAP protects this element from enemy CAP and the Iron Hand would defend the CAP from Flak/SAMs. ?Then the CAS would go in and destroy the enemy ground target/forces. After and sometimes during the Iron Hand and CAP ... ? In theory that's the way it works. ?But some times a guy on the ground, "like me" would call in CAS and no CAP and Iron Hand were available ... or needed ... ?Also OPFOR AAA/ADA/Flak could be suppressed by artillery from ground units if in range, known as SEADS = Suppression of Enemy Air DefenseS ... In the 101 it was common to plot artillery fire on likely enemy ADA positions along flight routes ... ? Hope I didn't confuse you ! ? ? ? :;):

? Feel free to ask most anything ... As a young and foolish 1LT, I had a Top Secret clearance to work with atomic demolitions ... but I don't think we even use those any more ! :laugh:

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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