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V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:07 pm 
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NH, TRC, Honda,

Ok - this is an interesting derivative that I never expected to explore.

That's monster firepower that is extremely difficult to touch unless the opposition is completely jacked up on AA. ?It can place 9 BMs on an enemy formation in Turn 1 (barring truly freakishly lucky flak rolls) even if they don't score a single hit.


NH,

I have to admit, 1) "Monster Firepower" and 2) "Completely jacked up on AA" are both surprising terms to define 1) the Orca and 2) necessary enemy opposission to the Orca, from your words above.

I'm surprised because;
1) I've yet to see/hear of the 9 Orca army win a single tourny
2) It has to get within 45cm to have a shot
3) If the enemy is in cover, at best the thing is hitting on 5's and placing blast marker for coming under fire.
4) Since it turns like a bomber, its not the easiest thing to manouvre
5) It does have 4+ armor but no RA, so it takes 1 hit from every 2 dealt
6) It only holds 4 crisis or 8-9 infantry depending upon formation.

In your proposed scenerio where its putting that many blast markers in a turn, how many have blast markers and fail to activate on turn 2, 3, and turn 4 when the enemy rallies?

Even if you had 9 shooting at 45cm - and the enemy was out of cover flailing about for you - thats 5-6 hits with rounding for your 900 point investment and 9 coming under fire BM. If the enemy was in cover, now you are in the 3-4 hits category - at best with the same BM. Now only some of that is coming back next turn and hopefully all of it lives through the current turn. 900 points is some smack in E:A.

Your Tau army now has some serious exploitable weaknesses to get through a tourny in.

Is the fear that we are saying that a Tau player could take 1800 of Tau on the ground and use 9 Orca as simply fliers to manipulate the airways with - not as a transport at all? I'll admit - there's a perspective I've never considered.

Would be interesting to see if that could hold up in a tourny.

This all seems very gimmicky and less likely to be reallistically fielded - but I would agree that all possibilities should be explored, regardless of extremes.

Cheers, ????




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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:59 pm 
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It's the 9 activations/BMs that are the potential issue.

As I said, it might not end up being a problem in practice but I can definitely see the potential for abuse.

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:54 pm 
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10 is okay. I don't see kroot do much in an assault situation if they're less than 10.

Besides it won't change much things for other formations and we'll have a list finished sooner. :cool:


Still I admit it's a bit strange to have the room in the Tau Orca dictated by Kroot :p






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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:41 am 
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It's the 9 activations/BMs that are the potential issue.

As I said, it might not end up being a problem in practice but I can definitely see the potential for abuse.



So, the issue isn't the Kroot, which was my point.

You object to someone taking 9 Orcas, then flying around taking potshots at formations until they all get shot down.  :/

Seriously, the Kroot have nothing to do with your argument. Somebody who is so inclined could have taken 9 Orcas from all the way back to at least version 3.

However, again, to what purpose.

Ok, so you dedicate 1/3 of your points the first turn to placing 9 BM and/or breaking a unit. It's a skimmer, it can be FF'd to death, it can be brought down by any decently ranged AT fire. Their slugs after they arrive on planet.

So, your opponent pulls out his calculator, figures out where +33% of your points are and starts shooting. How many of those Orcas are going to be around for Turn 2? How about Turn 3?

I hardly think this is a Code Red Home Security event.

BTW, I think there's a huge difference in the firepower between a Hammerhead and an Orca.

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:43 am 
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Hi Honda

Just looked at the stats in 4.3.3 to refresh my memory, where the Orca is classed as a WE, Aircraft with speed "Bomber". Have these stats been changed as part of the proposed revisions?

Also started a seperate thread on air wars topic in general to remove this argument from the discussion on Orca capacity here

Cheers Ginger

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:06 am 
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Yep, Neals got it in one. Its a cheap BM layer, with the ability to land to claim/contest objectives. I would fly them empty.

Re- shot down with AT fire. How? Its a transport, but that means I can use it as a bomber.

9 activations/9 blastmarkers means I can arse around on the ground to my hearts content, have some serious formations there for a start. 45cm range means I can miss most flak, I am after all just harassing stuff to lay BM.

Again has simply just occured to me as I can only it seems actually see 2 or 3 formations in an army at a time :)

However testing wise if I play with TS this weekend it will be another month maybe at least before I get to try 'Orca' list.

In general lots of the Tau air list can do this due to the formation sixe.

So 9 Orca don't have the firepower, what about 6 normal TS? And so forth. The list can mass air activations and air ranged fire like no other list (appart from maybe marines, but you pay 200 points for 1 battlecannon shot).

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:43 am 
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To bring this back on topic,

So it sounds like we are OK with unit size 10 on the orca then... ?

Cheers,

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:32 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Mar. 2006 (02:06))
The list can mass air activations and air ranged fire like no other list (appart from maybe marines, but you pay 200 points for 1 battlecannon shot).

So what TRC? Who in their right mind would do that? You can't hold OBJECTIVES with massed airpower. You can put down BMs sure, but if you're concentrating on a single formation to put all those BMs the rest of the enemy army will crucify yours. Let's not over-intellectualise this too much. Any army list can be abused.


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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:52 am 
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Quote (Honda @ 02 Mar. 2006 (00:41))
Ok, so you dedicate 1/3 of your points the first turn to placing 9 BM and/or breaking a unit. It's a skimmer, it can be FF'd to death, it can be brought down by any decently ranged AT fire. Their slugs after they arrive on planet.

The Orca is not a skimmer. It's a bomber.


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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:56 am 
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Quote (Dobbsy @ 02 Mar. 2006 (04:32))
So what TRC? Who in their right mind would do that? You can't hold OBJECTIVES with massed airpower. You can put down BMs sure, but if you're concentrating on a single formation to put all those BMs the rest of the enemy army will crucify yours. Let's not over-intellectualise this too much. Any army list can be abused.

1. Orca's *can* hold objectives. They can land. With 9 Orcas, you have so many activations that you're almost guaranteed to go last and just land enough Orcas somewhere to trigger all Overwatch fires and still contest or claim an objective.

2. 9 BMs is a lot. All those BMs placed are enemy units not shooting at your ground troops or enemy formations not activating.

(I've written before that I'd use the Orca as a transport quite gladly if it cost 150 points.)


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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:29 am 
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Sure any army can be abused, thats why we playtest them, to limit it :)

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:42 pm 
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Ok, I will retract my comment re: Shooting down 9 Orcas. I was left with the impression (an earlier version, I think) where they were skimmers.

So apologies there. I still struggle with this as a major issue, but I am willing to listen on.

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:35 pm 
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Let's not over-intellectualise this too much. Any army list can be abused.


You are correct that this is an intellectual exercise at this point. I'm not claiming that it is definitely a problem and I don't think TRC is either.   It just needs to be tested.  

I don't think any army list can be abused, though.  Any army list can produce relatively extreme lists at this point, but that does not necessarily indicate they are abusive.

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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:12 pm 
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Since this is the 1 of 3 threads where this topic now appears...

=======

In effort to bring the 9 Orca conversations from hypothetical back into reality just a little bit...

In my opinion, there's a risk of running into any of the following in a tournament. Activation driven blast marker creating ORCA armies may have their challenges to prosper if they run into these kinds of armies at the local tourny venue...

1) Tactical Marine heavy armies which require double BM to break

2) Majority fearless army with low initiatives

3) Tyranid army which ignore ALL blast markers

4) enemy flier fighter heavy armies ?

5) Air-Transport heavy enemy infantry armies capable of combat prowess (Eldar, Orcs, Marines) ready to assault as soon as you land an Orca to claim an objective.

So to those that want to play the 9 orca army - play it!

Lets see some results against all 5 of the above and see what your results are.

With results in hand and Bat Reps posted - let us then discuss whether there is a real problem with the potential of seeing a 9 orca army in a tourny.

Until then - back onto more pressing issues, like getting v4.4 created and posted into the vault as we are LONG overdue on that front!

:alien:

Let's make a different thread for these results though - OK?

We are trying to get v4.4 created. There's plenty of work to be done gentlemen - but lets try to keep the threads seperate and as close to on topic as possible.

So - again we diverge from the point of the thread,

-- we are all OK then with kroot on an Orca without reducing the unit size of the Kroot?

:p





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 Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:13 pm 
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So - again we diverge from the point of the thread,

-- we are all OK then with kroot on an Orca without reducing the unit size of the Kroot?


So would that be 9 Kroot on 9 Orcas?  :p

I'm Ok with same size.

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