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V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

CyberShadow

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:53 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Singapore

Following on from the discussion regarding the use of the Orca as a transport option for the Kroot. I have no problem with this development in principle, but this is not a gateway for the Kroot to be given all manner of Tau tech.

Proposed alterations to v4.3.3 are...

Orca: Add Kroot to the list of possible transported stands.

This is fine, but the Orca has a transport limit of nine stands. This means that a Kroot Kindred which is transported would need to lose a single stand. This leads to a difficult problem.

The Kroot entry could get messy with dropping one if and only if an Orca is taken.

Two obvious solutions are to reduce a Kroot Kindred formation to nine units, or upgrade the Orca to transport ten units.

Opinions? And why was the transport capacity of the Orca set at nine, it seems a strange number?

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clausewitz

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:29 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

When we discussed it previously I suggested that dropping the Kroot Kindred to 9 units would offset a potential power boost through access to a transport option. IMO, it would be worth trying it that way to see how it goes.

As an option, you could increase the Carnivore Squad upgrade to 6 additional units. That way if you increase the formation size beyond the Orca capacity you get the original numbers back.

No idea why the Orca capacity is 9. Can't even work out a formation that would actually use all 9 either.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:41 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Well, you could drop it to 8+ shaper... All other Tau infantry formations are 9 maxed out. The exception to this is of course Firewarriors, who get 8 to begin with.
Is there a dire need to have 9 in a formation or is this just a synergy thing?

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Legion 4

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:05 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

Upgrade to 10 ... it's easy ... it's the standard number of Kroot ... and it makes sense ... Can the Gue' use Tau Transport ? (L4 muddies the water ! :;):

)

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asaura

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:11 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am
Posts: 481

I think I asked for the 9th transport slot so that the Orca could transport a beefed-up Stealth Contingent. It's not a big deal, and I would hate to have the capacity creep up to 10. This was when we were debating whether to add Teleport to Stealth.

Now that Stealth have Teleport, the Orca can go back to 8 for all I care. It'd be better that way, I think. More in sync with the other races' air transports.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:44 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

Well looking at the transport capacity it seems to be able to have 24 firewarriors, plus 8 drones and 1 Etheral (roughly 6 stands epic wise) and then another 24 firewarriors or various equivalents.

So that would be around 10-11 stands.

Why not just boost it up - what effect would that have?

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Honda

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:37 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I agree, I don't see a reason not to boost the capacity.

You still have to face the fact that you're pulling Orcas from your aerospace allocations, so there will be some inherent balance.

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Honda

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Tactica

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:00 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Agreed with TRC and Honda.

Agreed with TRC's 10-11 suggestion. The Orca is supposed to hold a far cry amount of goodies. I don't see any harm at this time if we up the orca to 10 and leave the already kroot formation size alone.

Cheers,

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clausewitz

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:50 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

I have no problem with increasing the Orca's transport capacity. If that's the decision that CyberShadow makes I'll fully support it.

But consider this. There was some talk of the Tau being a "fan list", in other words a list made by Tau fans. And that therefore we wouldn't balance it properly due to us all wearing "Tau-tinted glasses". So if we were to reduce the Kroot formation we would at least show that we are prepared to downgrade aspects of the list in order to get things working the way they should.

[PS I know that we have done and will in future downgrade other units, I am not inplying that we haven't.]

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:07 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

Well, you could up the Orca points by 25, I am already wondering about the effects of taking 9 at 2700 points

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Legion 4

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:09 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

My feelngs stand for the reasons I stated above ... 10 ... :alien:

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Honda

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:49 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

@TRC,

Ok, I'll bite. You take 900 points of Orcas and what?

Wait till the third turn, then drop everyone on an objective? Are you then going to assume that you'll be able to blow your way into the objective with 10 Kroot? 10 FW? 4 Crisis + 4 Broadsides?

It would be one thing if the Tau had these super duper assault troops that all of a sudden lose a weakness (e.g. they're slow) by dropping them out of the sky. But let's face it, when we walked through this scenario with the Kroot, there was a fair representative opinion that putting Kroot in an Orca would only expedite their demise.

I don't want my tone to come off too strident, but if you did field 9 Orcas, so what?

I don't see where that force list suddenly requires a change in points. Let's make sure we really have an issue before we start a discussion about changing points.

:;):

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

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nealhunt

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:05 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Quote (Honda @ 01 Mar. 2006 (17:49))

@TRC,

Ok, I'll bite. You take 900 points of Orcas and what?

Not to be harsh, Honda, but it's comments like that which make me wonder if we are playing the same game. To be fair, I hadn't thought of it before, but once TRC pointed it out it's blatantly obvious.

It's not for transport.

It's 9 DC2 flying Hammerheads (roughly speaking), with individual activations.

That's monster firepower that is extremely difficult to touch unless the opposition is completely jacked up on AA. It can place 9 BMs on an enemy formation in Turn 1 (barring truly freakishly lucky flak rolls) even if they don't score a single hit.

Assuming you somehow manage to shoot down 1/3 and place enough BMs on 1/3 that they fail to activate, they can do a 1-turn objective grab on 3 objectives anywhere on the board.

The remaining points would still allow 4-5 decent sized ground formations for a total activation count of ~13 @ 2700 points, without the typical fragility of a mega-activation army.

It might turn out that it's okay. Maybe a decent amount of flak will place enough BMs to kill enough activations that they can be held in check. However, I can definitely see the potential for abuse and I want to see some batreps before I am convinced that it really is okay.

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nealhunt

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:11 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

To the Kroot formation size/orca transport:

It shouldn't matter much. Any formation can leave units behind. If you want to keep Orca transport at 9 units, the Kroot can simply leave a stand off. It's less than 20 points and could just be considered a premium for letting them ride in an Orca.

Of course, I don't really see it being an issue to have a transport capacity of 10. Or 8. Or even 12.

The way I figured it, the 40K capacity is ~11.5 epic stands, but part of that is composed of drones. Without counting drones, it's ~10 stands. You could easily put the capacity at 12 Tau units (because the drones form part of the units) or 10 non-Tau units (because they don't have drones).

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CyberShadow

Post subject: V4.4 - Orca and Kroot

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:18 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Singapore

My current preference is to up the transport capacity of the Orca to 10. It then wont impact on other issues, and avoids the messy "ten stands of Kroot except if you take transport when you get nine...".

I don think that this will have a negative impact on other aspects, since it wont suddenly allow vastly more formations to be transported.

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