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Feral Orks broken?
semajnollissor	Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:24 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm Posts: 1673 Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA	Quote (nealhunt @ 20 Feb. 2006 (10:54)) Even though I've stated my opinion on the matter, I do wonder how anyone thought a 45cm MW5+/AA available to every [nearly] formation seemed like a balanced idea. I mean, at least separate out the AA attack into a second weapon profile and give it a shorter range. Limited numbers, high price (relative to other units in the army), easy suppression due to lack of ranged shots or more than 30cm range on many units in the army. That's not to say it's balanced, just that I don't think it is heinously over the top. Well, I wasn't so concerned about the regular 50pts 45cm MW5+ that they get - that seems more than fair considering the soopagun and the soopa-zzap guns cost the same and are as widely available in the normal ork list. I was more concerned with the implications of having a 45cm, MW AA shot in every formation (or at least enough to blanket the entire board with AA). Even worse, if i were playing the ferals, I would take these guys for the regular MW shot, so those AA shots would be a happy bonus. It would make more sense to separate the Fist of Gork stats into two profiles, one with the longer-ranged ground shot, and one with a shorter-ranged AA shot.

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nealhunt	Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:38 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	It would make more sense to separate the Fist of Gork stats into two profiles, one with the longer-ranged ground shot, and one with a shorter-ranged AA shot. That could be a reasonable option. _________________ Neal

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primarch	Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Quote (Markconz @ 20 Feb. 2006 (10:02)) Quote (primarch @ 18 Feb. 2006 (13:07)) Hi! How could something "broken" make it into the book if people pointed it out? Primarch I'd put it down to limited numbers of playtesters with different opinions, and the first edition of a ruleset and armylists. It would be a miracle if things were perfectly balanced. For example, what version is Netepic up to? ?How much of each successive revision was balancing issues? A fair bit if my observations of the netepic yahoo group are anything to go by! ? Hi! Balancing or "tweaking" is one thing, it presumes the original rule was more or less okay, but needing fine tuning. Another thing is for something that is obviously broken to be included without challenge or a good look over. I agree that perhaps the playtester pool was small, or interest and supervision from people not interested in that particular list was minimal. Its easy for something to fall through the cracks this way. One thing we at NetEpic do that I beleive Epic A should have emulated was to do an "integral" approach. Everything in the game affects rules in one way or another. If you design on list in a vacuum, without input from other lists and its effects it is very likely something problematic will pop up. Finally changes, additions or modifications was put through an "approval" process where ALL members voted and gave their opinion. While design "by committe" has its flaws, its very difficult to get something "unproven" added as core. Also, it is sort of adverserial in the sense that if I'm a squat player, I'll be on the lookout for rules that make another army "too good" against the one I like. Given that there are members that like different armies it means everyone gets "an eye kept on". Of course it is easy when you have a dedicated base that doesnt fluctuate in size a lot. I understand that Epic A is going through a phase where support and enthusiasm is declining and thus having a large dedicated base is difficult, thus making some inclusions less scrutinized. My question is, now that these "inconsistencies"  have been found how does the current system in Epic A deal with changing it? Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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nealhunt	Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:15 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Another thing is for something that is obviously broken to be included without challenge or a good look over. None of it is "obviously broken." _________________ Neal

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primarch

Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:36 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Quote (nealhunt @ 20 Feb. 2006 (16:15)) Another thing is for something that is obviously broken to be included without challenge or a good look over. None of it is "obviously broken." Hi! By the sound of some of the posters it seems to be (granted my interpretation of what I have read), but that may be becuase they werent happy with the final decisions from the getgo. Of course that doesnt mean it didnt look like a good idea when once put forth by those who originally came up with the stuff. But from someone outside the process it seems it didnt require that much scrutiny or testing to find it wanting from some of those who actively play the system. Just an observation. One thing i have learned with netepic is that the people closest to the design process are the people least likely to see errors and mistakes. From personal experience you get caught up in "how cool" certain ideas are and game balance may suffer. The only way to remedy this is to get people from outside the actual designers to give it a look over. The more the better. You wouldnt beleive how many "cool" ideas were thrown out over the years once someone outside the process looked it over. Sometimes real simple obvious flaws are overlooked. You could fill a book with all my wierd propositions that got axed once they got "reviewed". But as stated by others, if the testers were a small group that is entirely understandable. Nowadays its very hard if not impossible to build a proper test group. In my expereince it requires at least 6 people that a really into that army list and they have opponents that when combined represnt ALL the armies available. That way we increase the chance of finding incompatibility. The goal is not a perfect army list (an impossibility), but that its not grossly underpowered or overpowered in comparison with other lists under comparable conditions. Single units and such will always be a problem (heck we STILL whine about eldar windhosts...   ), but one thing is to have a problem with one unit, another with a WHOLE army list. We have members gripe about UNITS, its been long years since anyone has griped about a whole army list. Heck, one of the truely custom made army lists (our version of slann/necrons) was argued over for more than 2 years before it was "released". It was nitpicked to such a degree that one agruement was that that list met a much higher "quality control" bar than even the original army lists made by GW.   The good thing was the list has survived the test of time (and LOTs of playtesting) and remains virtually unchanged for the last 5 years. Which is funny since we find that most of our troubles come from the stuff we inhereted from GW and their original sysytem. Thats the stuff the crops up on our lists nowadays. In truth, I am more enraptured with the process of Epic A maintaining, updating and playtesting itself than the actual rules. If the Feral Orks are "unbalanced" or not is for those who know the system well to decide. I'm more curious on who and how changes get made, if indeed they get made. I find that very fascinating. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules

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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:39 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland

One thing i have learned with netepic is that the people closest to the design process are the people least likely to see errors and mistakes. From personal experience you get caught up in "how cool" certain ideas are and game balance may suffer. I can only second this from bitter experience as I've been (and probably still am) one of the blindest list coordinators/designers there is.   _________________ I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.

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Tiny-Tim	Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:45 pm
Hybrid Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm Posts: 4893 Location: North Yorkshire	Helmet on and raise head over parapet. I'll own up to beng one of the playtesters on the Ferals. It's all my fault as I felt that I was loosing far to often and I wanted an army that would thrash whatever my opponent placed upon the table. Tiny _________________ _________________ www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion
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Tiny-Tim	Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:53 pm
Hybrid Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm Posts: 4893 Location: North Yorkshire	Now for some of the more serious side. So far I have not played as Feral Orks, but I have played against them more times than my bruised ego will let me say. They are a nasty army to try and beat with some formations that are on the edge. Personally I have a problem with the Boarboys 25cm infiltrate is too much. 20cm infiltrate is fine IMHO, but this was over ruled from on high. Having lots of MW AA shots from the Wierdie boys is great until blast markers start coming down on you. And lots of small formations doesn't work just ask the Eldar players - Soul Stone anyone. I will however agree that the list did need more playtesting unfortuneatly when we were calling out for more testers the majority seemed to be stuck on the Eldar list and not looking at Ferals or Siege. We did our best. Tiny _________________ _________________ www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion
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nealhunt	Post subject: Feral Orks broken? Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:56 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	It's all my fault as I felt that I was loosing far to often and I wanted an army that would thrash whatever my opponent placed upon the table. Heh. _________________ Neal

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