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Devilfish w/SMS?

Honda

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:08 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

This is for consideration in the next version, but should we give the Devilfish the SMS upgrade?

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clausewitz

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:46 pm

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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Just to be clear on this are you proposing the SMS as in..
Smart Missile System 30cm AP4+ Ignore Cover

.. to be added to the current Devilfish stats?

Or are we replacing another weapons system e.g the burst cannon or seeker missiles?

Would you envisage a points cost change for the Devilfish for this?

Finally, and please forgive my ignorance if this has been discussed before, for what reason would we want to do this?

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Honda

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:06 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Just to be clear on this are you proposing the SMS as in..
Quote ?
Smart Missile System 30cm AP4+ Ignore Cover

Yes, that is what I propose we consider.

.. to be added to the current Devilfish stats?

That would be correct again.

Or are we replacing another weapons system e.g the burst cannon or seeker missiles?

It is in addition to the existing set of weaponry.

Would you envisage a points cost change for the Devilfish for this?

Absolutely.

Finally, and please forgive my ignorance if this has been discussed before, for what reason would we want to do this?

I am asking that we consider this because:

A) This feature is available to Devilfish in the new 40K codex
B) Even with the additional cost, it strengthens the FW Cadre/Pathfinder contingents and makes them more attractive
C) It doesn't involve the Tigershark in any way, shape, or form

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Honda

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clausewitz

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:56 pm

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C) It doesn't involve the Tigershark in any way, shape, or form

Lol, good point

Interesting idea. The FW formation already has pretty powerful AP capability. Is it the ignore cover or just the increased volume of fire that would increase your attraction to the formation?

How much would the extra weapon cost? I have to admit I like the fact that Devilfish come in a nice round 100 points.

It would make the Devilfish one of the best armed AV transports around. Don't think any others have 3 shots.

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Tactica

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:57 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

If you look at the DF (in 40K so you can actually view the details of the model that is)... you will notice that

PRESENT DEFAULT DF
1. the central nose is a burst cannon.
2. their are two circular hard points to either side of the burst cannon.
3. by default, their are gun drones on each hard point when the DF is purchased - both in game and on model.

PRESENT OPTIONS
4. A 40K tau player currently has the option to further add 2 more gun drones to the DF
5. A 40K tau player currently has the option to purcahse up to 4 Seeker missles for a Devilfish as well.

Thus, presently a 40K DF could be outfitted with a total of 5 weapon systems plus 4 missles for 9 different shots in a 40K game. However, by default it has three weapon systems.

40K TOTAL PRESENTLY
4x gun drone (2 default, 2 upgrades)
1x burst cannon (default)
4x Seeker Missle (each purchased as an upgrade)

Not to step on Honda's toes or speak for him... but what I think he's asking here is based upon the following.

In the very near future 40K Tau Empires codex the base or default DF is supposed to be the same. (see above)

However, in addition to several other new upgrades for the DF (like the Deep Strike homing beacon for crisis and stealths to DS in next too...) the new DF will have the option to upgrade the 2 hard point gun drones to a single Smart Missle Systems (SMS) - again, by using both hard points.

So in the near future, the DF is 'rumored' to have the following potential:

40K NEAR FUTURE POTENTIAL
1x Hardpoint SMS (uses both hard points, replacement for default gun drones)
2x Gun Drone (additional upgrade)
1x Nose Burst Cannon
4x Seeker Missles
(other new non weapon systems too - yay!)

Therefore, as there's a known precident for including optional weapon systems on E:A vehicle profiles, I think Honda's asking if we should also consider SMS on the Devilfish.

PS - this was discussed in the past and most agreed that it should be revisited *IF* the rumors were true about the 40K DF receiving the upgrade option. Tau 40K players feel the DF needs a face lift and welcome the SMS upgrade in 40K with open arms now that v4 of 40K is out and established.

PSS - for the record, I would welcome the consideration of SMS on the DF in E:A as I of the mind that 'something's missing' from that formation for the [EDIT]300 :blush:

[/EDIT] points invested today.

Cheers,

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clausewitz

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:33 pm

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Location: Glasgow, Scotland

PSS - for the record, I would welcome the consideration of SMS on the DF in E:A as I of the mind that 'something's missing' from that formation for the 200 points invested today.

Do you mean 300 points? For FW + Df.

Why do you think "somethings missing" from the FW cadre? Is anyone else finding that?

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Honda

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:39 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

How much would the extra weapon cost? I have to admit I like the fact that Devilfish come in a nice round 100 points.

I'd probably propose starting with 150 pts for 4 vehicles and see how that affects things.

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Honda

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:42 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Why do you think "somethings missing" from the FW cadre? Is anyone else finding that?

I would look at it from the perspective of how vulnerable the unit is after it deploys to shoot. You're basically standing out in the wind in your knickers if anyone is even remotely close and we also need to keep in mind is that, yes the cadre does put out a lot of firepower, but it is still fairly fragile.

I'm just a Fish o' Fury kind of guy looking to tweak things.

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Honda

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dysartes

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:18 pm

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Tactica - I think you're mistaken with regards to possible loadout - I'm about 95% sure that the DEvilfish already has the "pair of gun drones" upgrade, and can't therefore be given it a second time.

Of course, if I had a copy of the 'dex to hand I'd check, but I know Army Builder is preventing me doing it.

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clausewitz

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:34 am

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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

I've found that the FW Cadre stands up fairly well to shooting. Of course, the Tau assault weakness applies to them as much as the rest of the list. I'm not sure an extra 30cm shot would really fix that problem though?

Would certainly make the Pathfinders Contingent very shooty.

I would be willing to give this a try, though my gut reaction is that I'd prefer to get extra units for the extra points. A bit like Tactica's thoughts on the Swordfish, I'd prefer to spend 25 points more and get four more units (drones). Seems like losing the Devilfish's would make an even greater impact on the formation too, first you slow down from lack of transports, then you lose more expenisive units when they go too.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:43 am

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Well I'm on the side of "NO" for this idea Honda. I'm not of the mind that we need to "copy" 40K units into E:A 100%. I'm happy with the stats and loadout at present and I don't want to see a points increase.

You're basically standing out in the wind in your knickers if anyone is even remotely close and we also need to keep in mind is that, yes the cadre does put out a lot of firepower, but it is still fairly fragile

SM Rhino transports don't get anything like the firepower of the DF. I'm not keen on up-arming the DF because we can. I think the Tau list is largely a fragile list - it almost seems like it's written that way for flavour. I'm not saying it has to be across the board but I think we should put the brakes on adding too much into this list for the sake of what a 40K Codex says. E:A is more abstract than that.

Just my 2 cents.

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Honda

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:17 am

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I would be willing to give this a try, though my gut reaction is that I'd prefer to get extra units for the extra points. ?A bit like Tactica's thoughts on the Swordfish, I'd prefer to spend 25 points more and get four more units (drones). ?Seems like losing the Devilfish's would make an even greater impact on the formation too, first you slow down from lack of transports, then you lose more expenisive units when they go too.

The idea here is that with upgunned DF, you have more options when it comes to getting out and shooting or staying in and letting loose.

@Dobbsy

I'm ony throwing this out for consideration. I haven't been holding my breath until the Five Aces issue was expended so that I could pull this herring out.

If the early feedback is that it would disrupt the balance we currently have, then, no biggee.

I only bring it up to deal with it now rather than later. Also, to quote a hockey player of some reknown, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take".

I do know that every single DF and HH in my 40K list will be wearing them.

We can move on, now.

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Tactica

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:05 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Quote (dysartes @ 17 Feb. 2006 (15:18))

D,

You are correct, I took a look at my codex and was indeed mistaken. The codex is clear.

Page 26, Tau Codex
Bottom Half of Page

Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier

Weapons: Burst cannon

Systems: The Devilfish has the gun drone vehicle upgrade at no additional cost.

Options: The Devilfish may be equipped with any of the vehicle upgrades specified in the Tau Armoury. It may not select the gun drone upgrade again.

Thank you for catching my error D.

Therefore the max 'current' load out on a DF is:

40K TOTAL PRESENTLY
2x TL gun drones (2 default)
1x burst cannon (default)
4x Seeker Missle (each purchased as an upgrade)

In E:A Tau, This currently equates to:
Burst Cannon & Gun Drones R:15cm AP4+ --
Seeker Missle R:75cm AT6+ Guided Missle

So, accounting for my error and further considering Honda's question...

[color=orange]40K[/orange] TOTAL WEAPONS - RUMORED FUTURE
1x SMS (Upgrade for both hard points)
1x burst cannon (default)
4x Seeker Missle (each purchased as an upgrade)

Therefore, in E:A, a Tau Devilfish Troop Carrier could hypothetically look like the following....

E:A TAU - NEW SCHOOL POTENTIAL
Smart Missle System R:30cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
Burst Cannon R:15cm AP5+ --
Seeker Missles R:75cm AT6+ --

NOTE: the burst cannon & gun drones would go to just burst cannon so would get one worse in AP as per other weapons of the same name in the list. SMS would be added.

NOTE2: In 40K, there will be a price to pay for swapping out gun drones for SMS - I don't know what the relative cost would be.

Question:
1) Does CS want to consider SMS for the devilfish?

2) What would the price delta be for doing so?

Cheers,

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:50 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Location: London

I've always worked Epic unit conversions as comparisons to other existing units. So I take what I remember of 40k and what current players tell me and how they compare to other vehicles of the same type in that race and other races, then look at how that transferes as a comparison in Epic.

On that basis what are the upgrades availible to the Hammerhead and how will the two compare in terms of firepower in 40k? Not much point comparing the other IFV's and APC's in Epic however as they all have the 'basic' loadout.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Devilfish w/SMS?

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:25 am

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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore

I would like to hold off on this until we see the codex (I advanced ordered mine yesterday!). The stats for the Devilfish should not necessarily reflect what is possible, but the most common or basic configuration of the vehicle. In addition, by upgrading the vehicle, we run the risk of having a very powerful transport, changing the role of the formation in general, and pricing the vehicle out of many players desire for a simple way to get their Firewarriors to the front line.

It does need thinking about, but this - along with a few other issues - will probably best wait for Codex: Tau Empire.

Thanks.

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