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AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
Baduin
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:02 pm 
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A simple way to increase importance of non-Titan units in AMTL army

An army-list special rule

Unstoppable Advance

The doctrine of Titan Legions stresses that Titans should always manouver offensively tactically, regardless of the general strategic situation. They should strike for the heart of the enemy army, without stopping to control specific terrain objectives. Because of that Titans may contest objectives in games but may not hold objectives. Note that Ordinatus can hold objectives.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:25 pm 
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Quote (Baduin @ 02 Feb. 2006 (22:02))
A simple way to increase importance of non-Titan units in AMTL army

An army-list special rule

Unstoppable Advance

The doctrine of Titan Legions stresses that Titans should always manouver offensively tactically, regardless of the general strategic situation. They should strike for the heart of the enemy army, without stopping to control specific terrain objectives. Because of that Titans may contest objectives in games but may not hold objectives. Note that Ordinatus can hold objectives.

So, to look at the consequences of such a rule, that would mean that an all-titan force could not achieve 3 out of 5 objectives? Thats fairly harsh.

I don't think the goal is to increase the importance of the smaller stuff (they already have value) but to make playing an all-titan list fair for all sides.

Some alternatives along the same line as your suggestion that might work better:

Alternative A:
AMTL armies are deployed to take the most important objectives. AMTL armies do not get credit for achieving the take-and-hold objective, but they count the bliztkrieg objective as 2 points for the purposes of victory conditions.
This would force the titan player to race across the board, and gives the defender an advantage in knowing where the titans are heading.

Alternative B:
AMTL armies are deployed against the most stubburn opponents. For an AMTL army to achieve the "break their spirit" objective, it must destroy both the most expensive enemy formation and the second-most expensive enemy formation.
This would give an advantage to the AMTL's opponent, since it is likely the opponent will have to overexpose his BTS objective in order to deal with the AMTL.

Alternative C:
The battle titans of the AMTL are considered sacred and the loss of even one of these ancient idols of the machine god is a serious blow. The opponent of the AMTL player may claim a victory point by destroying any battle titan in the AMTL army. This objective can be achieved in multiples, so the opponent gets 1 victory point for each battle titan he destroys.
This would probably be the least effective of my three suggestions, since it is hard enough to destroy a single titan, much less several, but it would mean that Reavers wouldn't want to be as exposed as the otherwise might be (assuming the BTS objective would be a warlord).

I'm sure there are many more alternatives, but I think they should be along the same lines as mine: change one or two victory conditions for the AMTL army, and its oppenet. Don't worry about the changing the contents of the AMTL list (at least not in this thread).
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Baduin
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:56 pm 
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Or, for example:

Sacred Relics

The remains of a destroyed Titan would be of a great use to an enemy. When an AMTL Ordinatus or a Battle Titan (not Warhound) is destroyed mark in some way place where the wreckage lies. AMTL player must hold all wreckage objectives on a given side of the table to qualify for a Take and Hold or Defend To Flag goals respectively. Additionally, if the enemy holds half or more of the wreckage objectives, he achieves Break their Spirit goal.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Quote (Baduin @ 03 Feb. 2006 (01:56))
Or, for example:

Sacred Relics

The remains of a destroyed Titan would be of a great use to an enemy. When an AMTL Ordinatus or a Battle Titan (not Warhound) is destroyed mark in some way place where the wreckage lies. AMTL player must hold all wreckage objectives on a given side of the table to qualify for a Take and Hold or Defend To Flag goals respectively. Additionally, if the enemy holds half or more of the wreckage objectives, he achieves Break their Spirit goal.

Yeah, I like that one. It feels like it appropriately plays on the mindset among the AM priests that the AM is somehow more special/important than anything else. It would also discourage using titans without backup, since if an enemy manages to destroy a titan on the far side of the board, there's little chance that another titan would be able to get across the table and contest the wreckage in time. Also, the math is good for destroying 1 or 2 titans (the enemy just has to hold 1 of the wrecks to get the objective). That, and it certainly forces the AMTL player to dilute his already few formations to cover the wreckage objectives.

The only other comment I have is that I'd [maybe] change the objective that holding the wreckage counts as from BTS to T&H, because destroying a titan will usually result in achieving the BTS goal anyway (Not always, I admit, but usually; otherwise, all this rule would do is discourage the use of reavers - which may be beneficial, too)
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Chroma
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:45 am 
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Quote (Baduin @ 02 Feb. 2006 (19:56))
Sacred Relics

The remains of a destroyed Titan would be of a great use to an enemy. When an AMTL Ordinatus or a Battle Titan (not Warhound) is destroyed mark in some way place where the wreckage lies. AMTL player must hold all wreckage objectives on a given side of the table to qualify for a Take and Hold or Defend To Flag goals respectively. Additionally, if the enemy holds half or more of the wreckage objectives, he achieves Break their Spirit goal.

I think you might be on to something!  I really like the feel of this and hope we can develop it and refine it.

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:57 am 
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Yeah, I like the sound of this too. Its certainly one to try & playtest. A refined victory condition certainly seems to me to be the best way forward in making this army Tournament fair.
And IMO this is the best suggestion proposed so far.
There has been a lot of good work done on the Titans & weapons so far. To try and twist this and make more special rules to try and make the army Tournament balanced is probably going down the wrong path.
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dysartes
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:11 am 
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That one sounsd very interesting, Baduin. I suspect I'd go with semajnollissor's point and try it with the wreck markers counting for a T&H goal rather than BTS first, and see how that goes.

If anyone has a game coming up soon, can you give it a try and report back?

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LDADAMS12
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:46 pm 
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I like it as well. It feal right from the background. I want be able to play this weekend, but will try it next weekend.

Daryl
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:52 pm 
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Quote (LDADAMS12 @ 04 Feb. 2006 (00:46))
I like it as well. It feal right from the background. I want be able to play this weekend, but will try it next weekend.

Daryl

Excellent, my marines will (hopefully) be ready for you.
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LDADAMS12
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:50 pm 
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I will bring my battlegroups :p

Daryl
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-AL
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:49 am 
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I've just started looking into the AMTL list, so I've only got a short leg to stand on.  All the same, I'll make a suggestion: requiring 1-3 Auxilia per Legio Formation

I do really like the general idea of having altered Victory Conditins for the list, particularly that last one as it seems so charactfull.

-Al

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NOVAGUARD
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:03 pm 
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im loving the idea of claiming the wreak of a downed titan. ( does anyone remember the Tian comic where they revived the worlord?) i think it could be a good start to stopping any imbalance in the list. the idea of taking at least one support formation per titan would in my opinon make pepole shop for cheap suport units... (sentenels?)

is there a way to affect the deployment of the AMTl? titans are large machines and surly the enemy would have a advantage of knowing their on the way... but alas iv no idea how to represent it myself.

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Chroma
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:22 pm 
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Quote (NOVAGUARD @ 06 Feb. 2006 (18:03))
is there a way to affect the deployment of the AMTl? titans are large machines and surly the enemy would have a advantage of knowing their on the way... but alas iv no idea how to represent it myself.

Fearsome Presence - When the towering god-machines of the Adeptus Titanicus go to war they loudly announce their presence, blasting battle hymms and praises to the Emperor which nearly drown out the noise of their thunderous steps. ?This strikes fear into the enemy, but also allows them to prepare their defenses. ?

To represent this, during a Tournament Game, AMTL armies are always considered to have a lower Strategy Rating for determining board edge, garrisons, and deployment order. ?Once the game begins, their normal Strategy Rating applies.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:54 pm 
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It seems to me that a smart AMTL player will always group the T&H objectives as close to the Blitz objective as he can. If placed at the minimum distance of 30cm from one another, it is possible for one titan to claim 2 (or more in the case of an equilateral triangle) objectives at once. While this is also true of other armies, the resiliance of a titan means that it is far more likely to withstand any countermeasures to drive it off its position.

Therefore, instead of forcing the AMTL player to automatically have a lower SR for deployment purposes, I think it might be more useful to either allow the opposing player to place one (or all) of the T&H objectives on his own side [drastic], or raise the minimum separation of objectives to 45cm or 60cm for objectives placed by the AMTL player [somewhat less drastic].

Functionally, I think that an all-battle titan list should be allowed. One way to reduce the effectiveness of such a list  is to exploit its inability to hold widely dispersed objectives, which the idea of having to hold titan wreckers is just a variation of (and a fluffy one, at that). But, I think that it is one of many possible solutions.
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LDADAMS12
 Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:09 am 
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Once the objectives are place the Titans opponet could be alowed to reposition the objectives say upto 30cm

Daryl
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