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Tau vs. Orks
Dobbsy
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:54 pm 
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[quote="clausewitz,01 Feb. 2006 (18:58)"][/quote]
I think that's what I said. ?
"It would probably be a fun and close game."

LOL! Sorry Neal, I was aluding to the planes not the game :D

Dobbsy, why not 400 points? ?Do you think they should be more or less? ?Can you explain your thoughts on the points cost a little more?

Yeah, sorry CW, my replies are always a little short aren't they? :D Anyway, my view so far is that 350 points you'd pay for the 2 aircraft would be sufficient. This is because out of all the discussion here, IMO it seems a single TS at 175 points seems fairly balanced. If you're forced to buy 2 at 350 it gets more expensive for your army list and you end up with less ground forces and one less activation (in comparison to buying 2 TS separately).

So, if you're playing 2700 and you buy 2 formations you're spending 700 points on formations that may be of very little use vs an infantry/non WE list and you are hamstringing yourself ground troops-wise. As Tau, I've found you really don't get much for your points (and rightly so, they are great units) unless you buy smaller less effective formations which have a much shorter lifespan in-game. So, basically, from my point of view, you're mad to take so many when you could be taking more "solid" ground forces :D

That said, if the majority of players decide 400 is more fair then I shall bow to their judgement as I'd rather see a swifter decision on this topic than sit and discuss it till we're all blue in the face and not get a result (which seems to be happening so far). Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting it right, but 200+ pages of discussion on one unit is getting a bit OTT





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clausewitz
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:19 am 
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Dobbsy, thanks for your explanations.

To explain my point of view a little further; the 400 points comes from the following.

Nealhunt, has posted more than one analysis showing the AX-1-0 has a very good chance of killing more than its points.  TRC's original intent with the 5 Aces was to show that he could also kill more than its points with great regularity.

Nealhunt (and seconded by others) pointed out that the 2 plane formation was more resilient due to being able to "shield" a damaged plane by leading with the other plane.  So a two plane formation was more resilient than 2 one plane formations (less flak per plane too).

On the other hand there was a great deal of opposition to changing the stats.

So an extra 50 points is intended to pay for the extra resilience and to cover the unit's perceived killing ability.

Making it a formation of 2 prevents the 5 Aces and makes it more of a tactical choice whether to include the AX-1-0 in your army, as the 400 points is a bigger points sink in non-objective holding units.

Other lists with powerful bomber formations tend to have the formation more expensive, like the Vampire Hunter, Marauder Destroyer, and (to a lesser extent) the Phoenix.  I do think we need to pay a premium for a flying TK weapon.

I too would rather we discussed this more (dispite it being a tricky discussion) than create a broken or "not fun to play agaist" unit.  I don't want to have people moaining about "the Tau and their broken aircraft etc".

The Eldar got to version 10.84 was it?  :p
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:52 am 
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And look what happened with them....... :)

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:31 am 
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Ok that's fair enough CW. Like I said, if the masses prefer the 400 I'll abide. I know I won't be taking any at that price though. :( It's hard enough for me to fit what I need into a list as it is. IMO it's a pity to put something in a list that ppl won't take though....

Here's a thought - I can't remember if this has been put forward before - but what effect would a 1x T-L Railcannon 3+MW TK(1) version have? It would halve the number of MW shots. I know it's supposed to have the same guns as the Manta, but what can you do if we're stuck?
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:53 am 
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Personally, as a WE hunter if it has one twin linked shot I reckon it should have D3 damge.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:05 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Feb. 2006 (02:53))
Personally, as a WE hunter if it has one twin linked shot I reckon it should have D3 damge.

LOL!! TRC :D I'm trying to come up with a decent compromise. At least if they're only TK1 you can still knock out WE, just with two aircraft in a formation not one and we can slap a decent cost on it. We kinda please the "Too many TK shots and DC" camp and we please the "it's too expensive etc" camp.

We might also be able to keep the cost the same as the straight TS and you have a choice for 150 if we choose to make them one aircraft per formation...(just an idea out loud though)

So what do people think about that compromise?

War engine Bomber, 5+ armour, 2DC

Twin-linked Rail cannon  3+MW TK(1) FFA

Twin-linked Burst Cannons
Heavy Interceptors
Aircraft Tracer missiles etc etc


Must be bought as 2x aircraft squadron for 300(only because it's been reduced in effectiveness) OR at 350 if we truly must put a higher price on it for the perceived threat value.

We all kinda get something out of that then (in my mind anyway...)
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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:34 am 
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Quote (Dobbsy @ 01 Feb. 2006 (19:31))
Ok that's fair enough CW. Like I said, if the masses prefer the 400 I'll abide. I know I won't be taking any at that price though. :( It's hard enough for me to fit what I need into a list as it is. IMO it's a pity to put something in a list that ppl won't take though....

@ Dobbsy,

Don't fear - the 'masses' don't. Many of us are just growing weary of the same topic being rehashed.

175 seems to be the right number from playtest. The effectiveness of a single or a couple of the planes seems about right. The durability of the SH Plane also seems about right. This all assumes an abundance is not taken of course.

Limiting 2 of the existing TS per 3,000 points being played, IMHO, seems to address _most_ concerns adequately enough.

The TS also has core development behind it being limited in availability.

Personally, I feel CS knows the situation and issues. I trust he'll make a good call for the Tau list when the next version comes out. For what it's worth, I don't _think_ he wants to see the AX-1-0 neutered to 30cm or 400 points a plane. Just based upon what he's said in the past.

Afterall, in limited numbers, the plane has a tremendous amount of playtest and has not caused problems until fielded in mass. Limits are at least one way to quell that concern and still keep a nice Titan hunter in the list that people will enjoy playing.

PS - its unfortunate that Honda's bat rep thread got derailed into AX-1-0 debate. Just know silence on the issue doesn't mean you are alone Dobbsy - far from it.

Cheers, :;):




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:04 am 
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Ah, but 1TK is an RA hunter, not WE hunter as you get a better return on the aircraft for killing RA targets than having to have multiple turns trying to get WE :)

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:46 pm 
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For what it's worth, I don't _think_ he wants to see the AX-1-0 neutered to 30cm or 400 points a plane.

Just to be clear the suggestion was 400 points for a pair of AX-1-0.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau vs. Orks
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:49 pm 
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Ah, but 1TK is an RA hunter, not WE hunter


TRC,

This statement is relative. TK1 hunts titans better than AT 6+, or AP2+, or FF 6+... You say tomato, I say Tomato... :p

AX-1-0 seem to hunt Titans and SHT pretty good as is. Note: AX-1-0 can also classified as a grot hunter They kill those pretty dead. Then again, so can any AP or macro-weapon. :D

Just because they don't deal TK(d3) doesn't make them 'RA' hunters. Your argument is that multi-shot TK(1) allows for more than one target. Single shot with TK(D3) allows you a single target and multiple DC potential. OK - following that logic...

If AX-1-0 had 2x 3+ 45cm shots at TK(d3) each - it would even make them Good-er-er at Titan hunting vs 1 shot at TK(d3), right? :p

Why not give it 2x 2+ and TK(D6) - that would make it even better at hunting titans?

Let's put the cards on the table...

You want them to be reduced range and reduced shots - period. 30cm, single shot... You are willing to give them TK(d3) in exchange but you of course don't want them to have TK(d6). Hit probability isn't really even that big of a a consideration to you one way or the other *If* you got these two things - i.e. reduced range and single shot, right?

Your stance is noted. We've been down the single shot path with 90cm range at 4+ MW(d3). Others of us don't want to go back to single shot days as it makes the plane less useful / appealing.

Others of us don't want the range reduction or single shot. We call this nuetering the plane. We think it kills titans just fine with TK(1) at 45cm and it also is managable when a horde of them are not fielded. We also concede that it has uses against any valuable target but has trouble with mixed formations or horde formations. We also recognize that with 4+ on the weapons, it typically only gets one hit with the big guns.

We also conced that there's a problem when 5 or fielded in a 2700 point list against certain lists.

So there's the real situation.

To keep the 'air-heads' like myself happy (Honda-ism) and to avoid abuse, limiting their use to 2 per 3,000 seems to be a pretty good place to start.

BTW: I'll still call it a titan hunter with 2x TK(1). If you and I ever get to play, I'll let you call it a RA hunter if you like though. :alien:

Cw,

Yeah, I meant a "formation" not a "plane"... just a brain-fart.

Sorry and excuse me.  :o0




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