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Tau - My Impressions
code_ronin
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:51 am 
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Well, Honda and I had the big game tonight. Sorry, but I am not going to spoil Honda's fun; he gets the honors of the BatRep as he took all the pictures and the notes. I'll add an Eldar perspective as necessary.

But, I went into this without really reading the list, just a few numbers (like Firefight values), so my impressions were really based upon the Tau in 40K (which I sometimes play).

Boy, was that a mistake! :D NONE of these armies play like their 40K counter-parts!

Here are my impressions though.

Crisis Suits: Boy, are those boys scary looking on paper! Honda tells me that they were expensive, but apparently not the most expensive unit. Of course, paper strength and real strength are two different things. The real killer looks like the Twin-linked FB and you have to get to 15cm to use that.

I would have loved to assault it, just to see how tough a nut four units would be to crack.

Ionheads: My memory is that this was the first unit that really smacked me hard, and from 60cm away. Plus, I think they had Seekers too, in order to smack my Vypers in the unit.

Fish of Fury: I'm sure it is tough if you don't roll all 1's, 2's, and 3's. (Oops, I gave something away. :devil: ) Seriously, I can see the potential, but I can't really tell yet.

Pathfinders: Those Disrupt weapons are nasty, especially in "pursuit". The Sniper ability is the "worst" feature. Easy way to lose Farseers. Trust me, they are high on my kill list next game.

Here's a funny story. (It should not give away too much.) When the markerlight drones teleported down in from of my Riders, I asked Honda, "so, what do they do?" He told me that they were markerlights and allowed his seekers to hit, cause all kinds of mayhem, etc. So we charged and smack the little R2D2s and I said "whew! Got rid of all of the markerlights" and Honda said "No, my Pathfinders are marking you for this Stingray formation."

So, the Farseers order the troos forward and we scatter the Pathfinders and I say "Okay, I got the last of the markerlights, right?". And he gives me this deadpan look and says "Dale, all of my units have markerlights." THAT's when I said "Oh cr@p!".

Tau are tough. And I am sure that with all the little goodies Honda still had in his box (I saw some Orcas and the 5th Air Force in there), it is going to be even tougher. Maybe once I start painting more of the little guys, I can take on the Five Aces and see if I can survive.

Dale
From the back of his Jetbike

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:46 am 
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Quote (code_ronin @ 01 Feb. 2006 (22:51))
Well, Honda and I had the big game tonight. Sorry, but I am not going to spoil Honda's fun; he gets the honors of the BatRep as he took all the pictures and the notes. I'll add an Eldar perspective as necessary.

But, I went into this without really reading the list, just a few numbers (like Firefight values), so my impressions were really based upon the Tau in 40K (which I sometimes play).

Boy, was that a mistake! :D NONE of these armies play like their 40K counter-parts!

Here are my impressions though.

Crisis Suits: Boy, are those boys scary looking on paper! Honda tells me that they were expensive, but apparently not the most expensive unit. Of course, paper strength and real strength are two different things. The real killer looks like the Twin-linked FB and you have to get to 15cm to use that.

I would have loved to assault it, just to see how tough a nut four units would be to crack.

Ionheads: My memory is that this was the first unit that really smacked me hard, and from 60cm away. Plus, I think they had Seekers too, in order to smack my Vypers in the unit.

Fish of Fury: I'm sure it is tough if you don't roll all 1's, 2's, and 3's. (Oops, I gave something away. :devil: ) Seriously, I can see the potential, but I can't really tell yet.

Pathfinders: Those Disrupt weapons are nasty, especially in "pursuit". The Sniper ability is the "worst" feature. Easy way to lose Farseers. Trust me, they are high on my kill list next game.

Here's a funny story. (It should not give away too much.) When the markerlight drones teleported down in from of my Riders, I asked Honda, "so, what do they do?" He told me that they were markerlights and allowed his seekers to hit, cause all kinds of mayhem, etc. So we charged and smack the little R2D2s and I said "whew! Got rid of all of the markerlights" and Honda said "No, my Pathfinders are marking you for this Stingray formation."

So, the Farseers order the troos forward and we scatter the Pathfinders and I say "Okay, I got the last of the markerlights, right?". And he gives me this deadpan look and says "Dale, all of my units have markerlights." THAT's when I said "Oh cr@p!".

Tau are tough. And I am sure that with all the little goodies Honda still had in his box (I saw some Orcas and the 5th Air Force in there), it is going to be even tougher. Maybe once I start painting more of the little guys, I can take on the Five Aces and see if I can survive.

Dale
From the back of his Jetbike

Dale,

Thanks for the teaser!

I remember many a post from you and honda on the tau board. I look forward to the write up that Honda's preparing.

It will be great to see how your eldar match up.

BTW: You hit the nail on the head, the E:A Tau playing nothing at all like they do in 40K. The eldar are still cheesy and rule breaking as ever though... ;)

Looking forward to the write up.

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code_ronin
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:52 pm 
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Yeah, well you don't really hear from me on that board because I stopped playing 40K about 6 months ago (heavy travel schedule, Warmachine, and now Epic). I played one game recently; it was a team game and we had Imperial Guard/Space Marines versus "Others". I was one of the "Others".

It was a good game and I won my sector, but it was so weird I did not bother writing it up.

As for the cheesy remark, it does seem like something's amiss. The Ork player pegged it as the Jetbike's stats; a 4+ save with a 4+ FF, and being skimmer and able to force the combat to a FF is a wicked combination. Add the 35cm consolidation/pursuit and you've got to wonder whether they are too powerful. It is not noticeable in the other lists, but comes out in the Saim-Hann list because you have to maximize them, so it kind of amplifies the problem.

One the other hand, the Guardians should be 6+ save, IMO.

The funny thing about the game was, I decided to use 2+ initiative for the Wind Riders and I failed less activations with them than when I had a 1+ (failed because of having 1 BM). Go figure.

Back to the Tau. They don't seem to creep up the blast on you. They either destroy you utterly or they don't. Maybe that was just an abherration of Honda's dice, but I either shrugged it off or broke completely. It was a shocker.

The Tau are the toughest army I have fought, by far. The Orks look scary, with their big hordes, but once you've seen their backsides enough times, they cease to generate awe. The Space Marines, well, I lost to them on the first game I played and I have not played them since, but now that I have this army refined a little, I don't think they are going to be a problem.

One point Honda made at the end of the game. One wonders whether the Saim-Hann can scale. According to Honda, the Tau do better at higher points, where they can start bringing in some viscious stuff. The Saim-Hann is just more of the same, it seems.




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jfrazell
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:35 pm 
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Sam Hain can scale as well as any eldar list.  We can stay with the horde concept or begin pulling in WE's and air/space support (as your favorite orkboy may find tonight).

Having been on the other end of better dice rolling from honda's earlier version.  When the Tau are on they are definitely on.  Sam Hain is a peculiar matchup that impacts the stength of some of some of their range firepower-you can grab them by the belt buckle and mitigate that advantage fairly quickly.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Quote (code_ronin @ 02 Feb. 2006 (07:52))
Yeah, well you don't really hear from me on that board because I stopped playing 40K about 6 months ago (heavy travel schedule, Warmachine, and now Epic). I played one game recently; it was a team game and we had Imperial Guard/Space Marines versus "Others". I was one of the "Others".

It was a good game and I won my sector, but it was so weird I did not bother writing it up.

As for the cheesy remark, it does seem like something's amiss. The Ork player pegged it as the Jetbike's stats; a 4+ save with a 4+ FF, and being skimmer and able to force the combat to a FF is a wicked combination. Add the 35cm consolidation/pursuit and you've got to wonder whether they are too powerful. It is not noticeable in the other lists, but comes out in the Saim-Hann list because you have to maximize them, so it kind of amplifies the problem.

One the other hand, the Guardians should be 6+ save, IMO.

The funny thing about the game was, I decided to use 2+ initiative for the Wind Riders and I failed less activations with them than when I had a 1+ (failed because of having 1 BM). Go figure.

Back to the Tau. They don't seem to creep up the blast on you. They either destroy you utterly or they don't. Maybe that was just an abherration of Honda's dice, but I either shrugged it off or broke completely. It was a shocker.

The Tau are the toughest army I have fought, by far. The Orks look scary, with their big hordes, but once you've seen their backsides enough times, they cease to generate awe. The Space Marines, well, I lost to them on the first game I played and I have not played them since, but now that I have this army refined a little, I don't think they are going to be a problem.

One point Honda made at the end of the game. One wonders whether the Saim-Hann can scale. According to Honda, the Tau do better at higher points, where they can start bringing in some viscious stuff. The Saim-Hann is just more of the same, it seems.

Dale,

Cheers for the reply,

I can't speak specifically to Saim-Hann so much. I know the Swordwind version of the Eldar well enough. They are ugly.

The Eldar's low initiative allows them to regroup typically on the end of the turn, and the spirit stones allow all formations to remove extra BM - and I forget which units have the 'Leader' ability, but this all means BM management is nothing for the Eldar.

=======> So when they have BM gained during a turn, they typically go away on the end of the turn really well.

Now consider abilities like alwasy being able to move a full move after combat, hit-and-run ability of move shoot and then move, and then skimmer pop-up rules as well with the best moving skimmers in th game across a full list...

=======> So, the Eldar are just hard to get too.

Now consider the low armor saves. This is the one Eldar weakness - granted, its off set by the amount of models they can take - but nonetheless, the low armor is what allows the enemy to pound them into the dirt.

=======> So when you get the opportunity against Eldar, you drive it home and blow the formation away. Otherwise - see above. 1) they will shrug off all BM. 2) they will go hide somewhere and you'll be hard pressed to catch them in an ideal situation twice in the same game.

The Tau can play the skimmer pop-up game, but we have nowhere near the special rules the Eldar have that i noted above (or the ones I didn't list).

I wonder if this doesn't contribute to the feeling that "Tau" either blow away the eldar or don't. I wonder if its really more of an Eldar 'way' in E:A vs. what the Tau do or don't do.

The Tau do of course have some good formations that can drive a kill home.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:53 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 02 Feb. 2006 (16:40))
The Eldar's low initiative allows them to regroup typically on the end of the turn, and the spirit stones allow all formations to remove extra BM - and I forget which units have the 'Leader' ability, but this all means BM management is nothing for the Eldar.

Spirit Stones only work for the end-of-turn rally, not regrouping, which is a mistake some of the local Eldar players were making; it's not a full version of leader.

As well, I think the only actual leader in the entire army is the one granted by the supreme commander ability! ?Spirit Stones are the only Eldar blast marker management ability.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:09 pm 
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The only one? What they need more? :)

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code_ronin
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:17 pm 
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If that's what makes Eldar good at blast management, then little or none of that affects the Saim-Hann (or at least my play style).

If we have Spirit Stones then someone sold them for a faster jetbike. Seriously, I don't think it is on the list.

Yes, we have a lot of leaders (one in every war host), but the Saim-Hann assault troops can't afford to pull back too far otherwise they will not be able to get back into combat and affect anything. Why? Because jetbikes can't do anything but assault. (This, along with the Guardians not being able to shoot, took Honda by surprise. In a good way.) And that means you have to stay within the 50cm threat range, otherwise you may be out for the game.

A third turn break is a tough decision. If you flee too far, you will not get back into assault, unless he is coming to you (not likely with Tau, I think, unless he is steamrolling you over). If you flee too little, he might be able to scoot up and affect your ability to rally. (Note, this comment will bear more significance later...  :devil: ).

And maybe that is the difference, ultimately, between the Saim-Hann and the other Craftworlds. They are pure assault (in the configuration I play - John contends otherwise) and although they are fast when they want to be, it is like the turbo-boost in 40K. Yeah, you can scoot across the board, but you can't do anything that turn but hang on for dear life. Same in EA; you only get a single move, so your total threat range is 50cm. Compare that to, say, a Falcon where you have a 35cm move, plus a 45cm shot, and you have an 80cm threat range; that is more than 50% farther.

So, actually, the Jetbikes aren't really that "fast" as far as combat is concerned; only where redeployment is necessary.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:03 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Feb. 2006 (17:09))
The only one? What they need more? :)

*LAUGH*

Well, Tau seemed to have been feeling the dreaded "third turn wilt" as hard as the Eldar did, but, at the time, Eldar had no options at all before Spirit Stones... I'm glad it's being fixed up for Tau as well... that last annoying blast marker lingering turn after turn is a killer...

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:06 pm 
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Quote (code_ronin @ 02 Feb. 2006 (17:17))
If we have Spirit Stones then someone sold them for a faster jetbike. Seriously, I don't think it is on the list.

That *is* interesting!

I haven't looked that closely at Saim Hann, but they can get leaders in all their Warhosts. ?Spirit Stones could definitely get out of hand there.

Posted about this in the Eldar section




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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:46 pm 
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Thanks Chroma,

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code_ronin
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:56 pm 
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I misspoke. Saim-Hann do have Spirit Stones. I just haven't been using them.

I guess I did sell them for a faster jetbike! :D

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:04 pm 
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Quote (code_ronin @ 02 Feb. 2006 (13:56))
I misspoke. Saim-Hann do have Spirit Stones. I just haven't been using them.

I guess I did sell them for a faster jetbike! :D

LOL,

And they [eldar] only get uglier as you learn all the subtlties and tricks to the list and to the game.

Honda will be 'loving' to play against your Eldar in no time... I see the bat reps already.

;)~

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code_ronin
 Post subject: Tau - My Impressions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:52 am 
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I didn't use Spirit Stones against him and I modified my initiative for Wind Riders to 2+, so you're right, it is only going to get uglier.

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