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Fra'al battlecruiser
rowanalpha
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:27 am 
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I'm going to incorporate these guys into my "Non-aligned Aliens" Fleet (I've built two, may as well do something with them).  I'd like opinions on what their points cost should be.

For those who missed Planet Killer #1 (and only), here ya go.
(I tweaked the ether cannons a little, the only edit)  I think it should be in the 260-280 range, but not sure.


Fra?al Battlecruiser --- pts
Type/Hits: Battleship/8
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45
Shields: 3
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 3

Weapons
Prow Lances(Strength 2, 45 cm, Front)
Dorsal Lances(Strength 3, 45 cm, Front/Left/Right)
Prow Ether Cannon(Strength 2, 60 cm, Front)

Notes:
Ether Cannon: When firing the ether cannon, roll a d6 for each point of the cannon?s strength and compare the result to the target?s shield value.

-If the roll is less, the target vessel takes 1 point of hull damage.
-If the roll is equal, the target?s shields are knocked down and the appropriate number of blast markers are placed in base contact with it.
-If the roll is greater, the tagret?s shields are knocked down and it takes 1 point of hull damage.

Ships that have no shields (shield generator crit, necrons, kraken) suffer a point of damage on a D6 roll of 3+.  Ships with holofields are hit on a 5+ with no further holofield save.  Lock-On orders have no effect on Ether Cannons.

Regeneration: Instead of repairing a critical hit, a Fra?al ship may use one six rolled in each repair phase to repair a point of hull damage.

Disengagement: Fra?al battlecruisers may disengage automatically without taking a leadership test.  If a Fra?al battlecruiser ends its turn with 2 hull points or less, it will disengage automatically.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:38 am 
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Is the Battleship a typo? Should be cruiser right? Might be too fast but maybe it's possible if you lower the shield. Str 5 lances at 45 cm are too much I think if you still have 3 shields.

What's the difference between less than the number of shield and more than the number of shield of the comparison for the Ether Cannon? I mean if its less than shield value, the target takes 1 damage, if more than shield value, the target still takes 1 damage. Or do you mean, for rolls more than the shield value, it takes 1 point of damage for every point rolled beyond the shield value? If that's what you meant, 280 is very cheap for this ship.

One can get a total of 12 if one is lucky and a battleship is crippled. On the average 6, a cruiser is also crippled. Scary. And that's not including the lances. In one turn, one dead cruiser or one heavily damaged battleship.
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rowanalpha
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:35 pm 
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No, battleship is right.  Means longer move before turn and wider base.

The ether cannon inflicts max one point of damage per point of strength.

If you roll less than the target's shield value, the target takes one damage.  If you roll equal to the target's shield value, the target's shields are knocked down.  If you roll greater than the target's shield value, it takes one damage and its shields are knocked down.

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frgsinwntr
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:53 pm 
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I'd have to agree... the points cost should look more like 350 for this ship then 280
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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:51 pm 
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No, 280 is right maybe too high(!). Compare it to the Hades heavy cruiser:

* Hades has 4 left/front/right lances at 60cm, 1 less as the Fra'al but a better range & arcs.

* Hades has 10 batteries/45cm each side. The Fra'al an Ether Cannon at 60cm to the front. The Ether Cannon doing easier damage but also easier to BFI. 10 Batteries can cripple a cruiser of used well.

* Fra'al has 1 extra shield, the Hades is faster and is more manoeuvrabel.

Thus in the end the Hades is the better ship. But the Fra'al start working better in numbers. More Ether Cannons is More easy damage.

Only thing what I would adjust to the Ether Cannon is the fact that it always works! Not right in my opinion. 1 Should always be a miss.

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rowanalpha
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:38 pm 
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Only thing what I would adjust to the Ether Cannon is the fact that it always works! Not right in my opinion. 1 Should always be a miss.


That was the tweak I put in.  The original rules always did a point of damage, no matter the roll.  I changed it so that rolling equal to the shield value knocks down the shields, but does not damage (I.E. the charge was enough to overload the shield, but not do any further damage to the ship.  Still a 1-in-6 chance).

about 265 point then?

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:01 pm 
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Quote (rowanalpha @ 27 Jan. 2006 (13:35))
No, battleship is right. ?Means longer move before turn and wider base.

The ether cannon inflicts max one point of damage per point of strength.

If you roll less than the target's shield value, the target takes one damage. ?If you roll equal to the target's shield value, the target's shields are knocked down. ?If you roll greater than the target's shield value, it takes one damage and its shields are knocked down.

Ok, so battleship it is.

And it only inflicts 1 point of damage everytime. I thought it was 1 point for every point beyond the shields. I'd say 260 should be fine.
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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:06 pm 
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Quote (rowanalpha @ 27 Jan. 2006 (19:38))
Only thing what I would adjust to the Ether Cannon is the fact that it always works! Not right in my opinion. 1 Should always be a miss.


That was the tweak I put in. ?The original rules always did a point of damage, no matter the roll. ?I changed it so that rolling equal to the shield value knocks down the shields, but does not damage (I.E. the charge was enough to overload the shield, but not do any further damage to the ship. ?Still a 1-in-6 chance).

about 265 point then?

But the Ether Cannon is not rolling to hit, right? It's already an autohit either way. You are just rolling to see if its effects go beyond the shield value (which is only a concern when taking on battleships). Autohit is fine since it only gives out 1 hit either way. I say 260 and I think that's still on the high side.

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rowanalpha
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:20 pm 
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Its not a "to-hit" per se, more like "what effect".

Okay, lets have an example here:

Fra'al battlecruiser vs Retribution Battleship(4 shields)

The Fra'al ship fires it Ether cannon and rolls a d6 (we'll ignore the second point of strength for now) here are the results:

1-3: The Retribution takes a point of hull damage, shields are unaffected.
4: The Ret's shields are knocked down, it gets 4 blast markers.
5-6: The Ret's shields are knocked down, and it takes a point of hull damage.

The Fra'al player rolls a four, knocking down the shields and then follows up with a devastating volley of lance fire.

Analysis:
Ships targeted with the ether cannon always have a 1 in 6 chance of taking no hull damage. ?The more shields a ship has, the less likely they are to be knocked down.

I think I'll go with 265 points if no one has any major objections.




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Cpt.Leoten
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:28 pm 
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Any piccies?

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:45 pm 
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Hmm, still I think a '1' should always be a failure, no hits no shields down no whatever!

But, yeah, 260 is a good starting point with the cost. After some test battles its easy to see if needs to be made cheaper.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:49 am 
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Technically, you can't really roll a "1" in this case as the minimum is 2  (rolling snake eyes). Why not just say if snake eyes is rolled works but the Ether Cannon is done for the game while on a double "6", roll another D6 and on a 6, the battlecruiser also takes 1 point of damage ?
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rowanalpha
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:14 am 
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no, its not a 2d6 roll, it is 2 1d6 rolls.  These can be targeted at the same taregt or two different ones.  Its not needing any more complication.

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:08 am 
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No, when you roll a 2 against a 2 shielded target you have done damage, okay, but not a 'miss' or 'failure'.

All weapons in BFG can miss or not hit or not do damage.

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rowanalpha
 Post subject: Fra'al battlecruiser
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:03 pm 
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I see what you're saying, but in the scheme of the weapon's function its not feasible to fit it in.

Say a 1 is a failure, then what happens when you fire at a ship with one shield? (an escort, or an ork cruiser)

Well then we could change the rules to say you have to add one to the shield value, so an escort has 2 shields for the purposes of getting hit with the ether cannon.  So we've added a paragraph of rules text, and made the weapon twice as complex.  This is the antithesis of elegance.

This is the same reason I'm against the snake-eyes rule earlier. It adds an extra paragraph about a situation that happen 1-in-36 attacks(assuming the Fra'al player simply doesn't avoid the issue by rolling one attack and then skipping the second if the first is a 1)

This weapon is powerful, and it should be appropriately costed, but also realize that is usefulness diminishes the smaller the target it is used on.  Yeah it beasts battleships, but fire it at a light cruiser and... oh well, my one shield is down, like that wasn't going to happen anyway. :oops:

If its that much of a concern, we'll knock it back up to 275 or so.

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