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I what to wargame Dune...how?
Mojarn Piett	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:28 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland	BTW, Ty Beard made a miniatures game about Dune in 1998. It's called "A Fistful of Sardaukar" and judging from the name uses his "Fistful of TOWs" modern armor rules as a basis. It's free so take a look for a few ideas: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/8750/stuff.htm _________________ I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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Tas	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:27 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	Indeed it is Mojarn - its FFOT with a few special rules. I wrote quite a few extra rules for the FFOT and helped develop FFOT2 _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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Tas

Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:03 am

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW

The original film and the Sci-fi TV series are very different beasts. The TV series went with a very Napoleonic / Colonial era look hwile the film was stuck in the 1970s! Quote (Cuban Commissar @ 26 Jan. 2006 (23:55)) While the minis series almost reminded me of a sci-fi version of the Renaissance. The Sardaukar costumes were very "Pillsbury Dough Boy!" Quote (Cuban Commissar @ 26 Jan. 2006 (23:55)) *** Which ones did you guys like? *** I liked both although the Sci-fi series probably had the better look. Id have to agree.  I liked both, but the mini-series was far more complete and did well on a limited budget. BTW has anybody seen the second miniseries "Children of Dune"?  What was it like? Its on special at the lcoal DVD shop and I was wondering if its worth it _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/

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blackhorizon	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:14 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm Posts: 2842 Location: Netherlands	Hmmm, the series where really dissapointing, they messed to much with the story. The movie is cult and I quite like it. But the books are best  as (almost) always! _________________ Light at the Horizon. Warp Rift Project Distant Darkness Eldar MMS GothiComp Hall of Fame http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19176
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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:31 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Hi BH, Quote (blackhorizon @ 27 Jan. 2006 (04:52)) Herbert was an amatuer linguist in many regards. You made a nice summary from your viewpoint Maksim but above sentence went a little too far... I know that you're joking, but, to my knowledge, Frank Herbert (FH) had little to no linguistic training. I have a lot and I remember the knowledge taking lots of study and I daresay work. I've met a lot of amateur linguists (I was one myself before I studied) and they were all lacking. Study really helps. Quote (blackhorizon @ 27 Jan. 2006 (04:52)) I think he did a good job in incorporating all aspects of ecology, economy, sci-fi, religion, politics, women right's, etc.. Especially the last one is really strong in his books. Really in Heretics & Chapterhouse where he introduced sex as a weapon. Women's rights! I'm not so sure about that. FH made a number of real life quotes that while he absorbed the miasma of counterculture political thought of the 1960s and 70s, women's rights wasn't one of the concepts he deeply absorbed. Sex has always been a weapon when folks wanted to use it that way. Women don't have to have any rights to use sex as a weapon. Neither do men. I'd agree that he has some strong female characters, but ?don t think he was for the equality of the sexes based upon quotes from his life and from his fiction. His personal actions with his own life and the way he treated the mother of his children particularly predispose me to thinking that he wasn't for the equality of the sexes. Quote (blackhorizon @ 27 Jan. 2006 (04:52)) Maybe his views are flawed in some ways but his dialogue writing was outstanding same as his 'thinking' pieces. Well, they say that most geniuses are a little insane... Seriously, he reminds me of a lot of pretensious "know-it-all" intellectuals that I've known. I find the dialogue a little artificial at times and his characters to be uninspiring as often as not. Now, don't get me wrong, I can still appreciate the good aspects of the novel and suspend disbeleif where necessary to enjoy the books. Quote (blackhorizon @ 27 Jan. 2006 (04:52)) The fact he was vague on warfare didn't bother me at all because the books aren't war-books. That doesn't bother me when enjoying the book, but it's a real nit when you want to use the book as inspiration for a wargame! Quote (blackhorizon @ 27 Jan. 2006 (04:52)) Good to see you being objective about religions & politics by the way. I've lived among many other religions and have no problem with diversity of any sort. The Old Testement is very clear that no one nation has a monopoly on the righteous or the wicked... from every nation come both the righteous and the wicked. It's our actions that determine who we are not our origins. Seriously, I think that being a good person is helped by someone with religion because it passes on the wisdom of their forefathers as well as an ethical framework to use, but it isn't required to be a good person. I do think that ethical action in the long term does require the study of our forefathers' actions (history) because it's apity to not learn from the mistakes of others. I feel bad for those folks who feel that they can make decisions without others. It's hard to dispute that mankind is a social animal. They're missing out on alot. Our ancestors have learned a lot of hard lessons that I'd rather not have to re-learn. Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/

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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:50 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Hi Tas, Quote (Tas @ 27 Jan. 2006 (10:03)) Quote (Cuban Commissar @ 26 Jan. 2006 (23:55)) *** Which ones did you guys like? *** I liked both although the Sci-fi series probably had the better look. Tas: I'd have to agree. I liked both, but the mini-series was far more complete and did well on a limited budget. I was also impressed with what the miniseries did with their budget. I also loved the Chani actress... va va voom! Quote (Tas @ 27 Jan. 2006 (10:03)) [*** BTW has anybody seen the second miniseries "Children of Dune?" What was it like? *** Yes. It was a bit long and a trifle "Hollywood'ish," but I enjoyed it for what it was. I borrowed it last year or the year before from my friend, Jon. The twins were very cool. If I remember right, it had the abominable Susan srandon, who proved why she shouldn't be an actress again, but excepting her time on screen, it was a passable adaptation of the novel. The special effects for the Navigator were also pretty cool. Quote (Tas @ 27 Jan. 2006 (10:03)) [It's on special at the local DVD shop and I was wondering if its worth it. Don't pay too much for it, but if you're a "Dune" fan (...and I think you are!) then it could be a good buy. I wouldn't buy it, but I'm not much of a "Dune" fan... Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/

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MaksimSmelchak	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:50 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA	Hi Mojarn and Gang, Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 27 Jan. 2006 (07:28)) BTW, Ty Beard made a miniatures game about Dune in 1998. It's called "A Fistful of Sardaukar" and judging from the name uses his "Fistful of TOWs" modern armor rules as a basis. It's free so take a look for a few ideas: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/8750/stuff.htm I like Ty Beard quite a bit. So do Dafrca and Tas among others. I'd like to take a slightly more complex approach with "Planetfall," but I'm a big admirerer of FFOT. He has two blogs: Ty's FFOT blog - A Fistful of TOWs A blog for the modern miniatures wargame "A Fistful of TOWs": http://fftows.blogspot.com/ Ty's political commentary blog - Per Aspera Ad Astra "The Hard Way to the Stars" Ty Beard's Personal Weblog: http://asperaadastra.blogspot.com/ Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
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Cuban Commissar	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Purestrain Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am Posts: 2933 Location: Colorado, USA	Quote (blackhorizon @ 26 Jan. 2006 (21:52)) The fact he was vague on warfare didn't bother me at all because the books aren't war-books. I don't fault the books at all for being vaguew on the technology and warfare.  It woudn;t be a good story if it was just a bunch of techno speak. But miliatry history is my passion and I can't help but wonder about thge how and why of military battles historical and fictional. I love studing the interaction between tactics, national temperment, technology, experience, and circumstances that all lead to an outcome.   For example my study of Napoleonic era was stirred by me wanting to know the answers to the following questions What did Napoleon do different from the generals in the past to become so succesful? Why was the Grande Armee of 1805 such a feasome force? Why did soldiers line up and shoot at each other in such a "stipud" way? I love discovering such anwsers.   Of course with fiction it a little harder because there isn't a library of books discussing the tactical failings of the Empire in Star Wars.  But it's still fun to speculate Why did the Empire lose to a bunch of Rebel scum?  Do much centralization? Thanks guys...
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blackhorizon	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:21 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm Posts: 2842 Location: Netherlands	Maksim & Cuban, Agreed, for basing a Wargame the military in Dune is too vague. _________________ Light at the Horizon. Warp Rift Project Distant Darkness Eldar MMS GothiComp Hall of Fame http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19176
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wargame_insomniac	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:51 pm
Purestrain Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm Posts: 3305 Location: West Yorkshire, UK	Some interesting and thought provoking posts guys. I'm going to stay clear of any comments on Dune re Jewish/Arabic religions and cultures, or FH's attitude to Womens Rights, as I don't think either subject should be debated on a Wargames Forum. My thoughts on the books- the orginal was a classic that I reread recently and still found as good and inspirational as when I first read it in my teens. The second and third books were still really good sci-fi novels. The fourth, fifth & sixth books were patchy. The 3 House prequels were not as well written as the original but were still very good reads. I liked seeing characters for the first time when they were younger and following through all of the events that lead up to the start of FH's work. (In the same way as Revenge of the Sith is not as great as the original trilogy but is still an ok film lifted by seeing all of the threads linking through to the original Star Wars). I have not bothered to read the Butlerian Jihad- I got enough Dune back story from the 3 House prequels. The film approached being an all time classic but fell short. There were too many bits that just jarred. The way David Lynch depicted the weaponry of House Atriedes just clashed with the picture I had in my mind. Not yet seen the series- will have to check it out some time. I look forward to seeing if M/S can come up with anything good with Planetfall-Dune. Cheers James _________________ My TOEG- Blood Angels and Deathbolts My Painting Blog- Evil Sunz, Goffs My Epic trades list
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blackhorizon

Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:00 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm Posts: 2842 Location: Netherlands

I have not bothered to read the Butlerian Jihad- I got enough Dune back story from the 3 House prequels You should read the Butlerian Jihad, those books contain the most battles and most detailed description of battles. Especially the opening of the first book is great. For wargame references with Dune those 3 will prove worth in my opinion. _________________ Light at the Horizon. Warp Rift Project Distant Darkness Eldar MMS GothiComp Hall of Fame http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19176

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wargame_insomniac	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:15 pm
Purestrain Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm Posts: 3305 Location: West Yorkshire, UK	Quote (blackhorizon @ 27 Jan. 2006 (19:00)) You should read the Butlerian Jihad, those books contain the most battles and most detailed description of battles. Especially the opening of the first book is great. For wargame references with Dune those 3 will prove worth in my opinion. Well fair enough- that sounds like a good enough reason to bread it after all then!! Thanks James _________________ My TOEG- Blood Angels and Deathbolts My Painting Blog- Evil Sunz, Goffs My Epic trades list
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Cuban Commissar	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:28 pm
Purestrain Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am Posts: 2933 Location: Colorado, USA	Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (11:51)) I'm going to stay clear of any comments on Dune re Jewish/Arabic religions and cultures, or FH's attitude to Womens Rights, as I don't think either subject should be debated on a Wargames Forum. Agreed
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Cuban Commissar	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:48 pm
Purestrain Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am Posts: 2933 Location: Colorado, USA	Quote (blackhorizon @ 27 Jan. 2006 (12:00)) You should read the Butlerian Jihad, those books contain the most battles and most detailed description of battles. Especially the opening of the first book is great. For wargame references with Dune those 3 will prove worth in my opinion. I will read those book in time.   Do those books provide anymore insight into our discusion here? Are there any new weapons sytems introdced that we didn't see in the orginal books? inquiring minds want to know.... So how would one stop a charge from a unit of shield armed troops? Just take out your knifes and start hacking I guess.   Are the Shaudakar all shied equiped?  I didn't think so but I can't remember right now.   Take care guys
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MaksimSmelchak	Post subject: I what to wargame Dune...how? Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:06 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA	Hi James, Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (18:51)) I'm going to stay clear of any comments on Dune re Jewish/Arabic religions and cultures, or FH's attitude to Womens Rights, as I don't think either subject should be debated on a Wargames Forum. Fine by me either way. If we leave out FH's atittudes then we leave out a lot what went into "Dune," but that doesn't bother me. Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (18:51)) My thoughts on the books- the orginal was a classic that I reread recently and still found as good and inspirational as when I first read it in my teens. The second and third books were still really good sci-fi novels. The fourth, fifth and sixth books were patchy. I feel the same way... the novels go down hill the farther you get. That's part of what's kept me from some of the later sequels and prequels. Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (18:51)) The three House prequels were not as well written as the original but were still very good reads. I liked seeing characters for the first time when they were younger and following through all of the events that lead up to the start of FH's work. (In the same way as Revenge of the Sith is not as great as the original trilogy but is still an ok film lifted by seeing all of the threads linking through to the original Star Wars). Star Wars is a good analogy. Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (18:51)) I have not bothered to read the Butlerian Jihad - I got enough Dune back story from the three House prequels. Well, if we're going to avoid discussing religion, then the Butlerian Jihad will be an off-topic subject because Herbert used the Butlerian Jihad as a mouthpiece for a lot of what he wanted to say. There are no two ways about it either. FH was pretty clear in what he wrote. Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (18:51)) The film approached being an all time classic but fell short. There were too many bits that just jarred. The way David Lynch depicted the weaponry of House Atriedes just clashed with the picture I had in my mind. I tend to agree. Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (18:51)) Not yet seen the series- will have to check it out some time. They're fun. I found them tedious in a few points, but you either go the distance or... fast-forward! Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 27 Jan. 2006 (18:51)) I look forward to seeing if M/S can come up with anything good with Planetfall-Dune. It'll be down the road a ways. I'm concentrating my efforts on Traveller and might let myself have the distractions of giant monsters / kaiju and possibly a Star Wars Endor jungle battle or some other good Star Wars battle that gives me an excuse to build something other than snow vehicles. Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
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