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BFG Points system |
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Raysokuk
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Post subject: BFG Points system  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:42 pm |
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I'm having a nightmare trying to figure out a BFG points system. So I'm throwing what I've done so far on the forum and see if anyone has any ideas that could tidy it up.
Cheers,
RayB
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:20 pm |
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Ouch. I see your problem. Whenever I have attempted anything like this, I find it best to find the two closest sets of stats, and just work out the cost for the difference between them. Then, find the simplest stat and deduct the cost that has just been calculated. Once you have made a start, it does come together... right to the end when two identicle ships work out at difference amounts! 
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:51 pm |
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Part of the problem with making a points system for GW games is that the points are army/fleet-specific. They seem to think that a unit that is atypical for a force (fills a gap in capability) should be more expensive than an identically-statted unit in another list. This is very interesting, since Star Fleet Battles' points system is constant across the board, and SFB is one of the best-balanced games out there. Never mind that it's a nightmare to play (takes longer to play a simple cruiser duel than it did to play a 3500-point game in 2nd ed 40k!), the balance is good.
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:02 pm |
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For me, the big problem is that the original designers simply didnt give a hoot about points. They playtested, and made an educated guess... which, to be honest, may be the best way forwards.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Shinnentai
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:37 am |
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In some ways no matter how accurate and detailed the points calculation scheme gets, it will never replace playtesting. Even after all of the variables are taken into account, there are some combinations of stats that will work better together than others ( eg 6+ prow & a lot of prow weaponry, or weapons systems with matched ranges, or a high proportion of ordinance ).
In addition, to be honest I really don't believe it's even possible to model a lot of the variables in any accuracy anyway. Eg, in valueing the defences of a ship, they're going to be dependant on the ratio of weapons systems used against them. Also, what are the relative values of a shield and a hit point? Sure shields recharge, but ordinance ignores them and you can brace with hits - but then the craft is handicapped in the next turn. Not to mention factoring in how often even a good player will know when to brace ( you never know when those 4 dice will come up all 6's... ).
I've always found that points comparisons with similar ships offer a good starting point that can then be modified subject to playtesting.
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Raysokuk
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:07 pm |
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Well it's easy enough to make a points system based on educated guesses of an eductated guess. But what I wanted was something that actually showed where the guess came from.
All I can really do is compare armour values and weapons systems with each other (and take a few liberties, like how to justify the cost of 'range'). On top of that include the points for things like locking-on and speed (although speed doesn't only affect the owning players weapons but your enemies aswell, how do you point that!?)
It will be impossible to come up with a perfect points system, I'll try and stream line it by including 'rough' values for leadership in weapons etc. (Any points sytem will have to allow for the fudge factor I'm just try to make it as little as possible).
Cheers,
RayB
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Shinnentai
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:46 pm |
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| Quote (Raysokuk @ 21 Jan. 2006 (13:07)) | | All I can really do is compare armour values and weapons systems with each other (and take a few liberties, like how to justify the cost of 'range'). On top of that include the points for things like locking-on and speed (although speed doesn't only affect the owning players weapons but your enemies aswell, how do you point that!?) |
Yes, range is another difficult one eh? I suppose the main advantage of range is that you get to fire the first volley so that your opponent's first volley is diminished through losing ships etc. Then there's also the greater ability to strike at targets of opportunity ( escorts hiding behind the enemy fleet / flanking vessels / crippled vessels trying to escape ). Plus I suppose you may get more chances to fire ( even if it is only an extra volley ). Range is also more important against enemies that hit and run ( Eldar ) rather than those that will close with you anyway.
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blackhorizon
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:17 pm |
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Another thing that could be done is to start from scratch.
Don't look at the ships, just build a new point system without looking at old stats.
Use the new stats & points in BFG, make an official errata on Armada, just like an official FAQ.
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Shinnentai
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:33 pm |
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That would be to assume that the points system will be any more accurate than the current costings of ships. This is very much in doubt. A far better course of action would be to simply tweak the present costs based on player feedback I think.
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Raysokuk
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:15 pm |
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This is true (on feedback), as you could design a ship with all its weapons firing in one arc (say Prow) and it could totally out do a ship with the same building blocks but having the weapons spread into different fire arcs. (or imagine if a ship only had one broadside but was twice the strength!)
I think the only useable way of pointing a ship is to take its closest comparison and increase or decrease the points as appropriate (sadly not all ships are pointed that well, like the Dev!).
Cheers,
RayB
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Xisor
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:19 pm |
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Now, as nice as the point systems are, my main fear of succumbing entirely to them is that anyone with a sufficient grasp of low-end calculus(I think it's that anyway) and/or a bit of computational wizardry with a program or programmable calculator will always find a way of getting the optimum fleet/army/character for the points.
With the old playtesting methods, it's easy to 'nip this in the bud' by simply adjusting as you see fit. For example, how do you take into account the effect that a change has on playing style, or overlapability with other ships?
Okay, now I'm justbeing cynical. I'm convinced if Sigoroth could be bothered/coerced, we'd have a damn niceformula. But that's not likely IMO.
In the end though, it seems, I agree with almost all points here already, so it doesn't make much odds! 
Xisor
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blackhorizon
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:25 pm |
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If you ask Sigoroth again and again and again he eventually may add his wisdom on the point formula for BFG.
I know because I was persistent on having a look at the Eldar MMS rules, finally he showed them and now they are bound to appear in public (WR...when...? Dunno...)
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: BFG Points system Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:45 am |
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