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[Lists] Call me stupid, but.......
Jaldon	Post subject: [Lists] Call me stupid, but....... Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:53 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.	The New Nid List A Commentary I really don?t like to voice an opinion on a list until I have had a chance to use it in a couple of battles, and can offer some constructive ideas on how to fix what I believe is wrong with it. While in many ways I am going to be ripping into the present Nid list the news isn?t really all bad from this end as I see very many real good ideas in the list to. There is no doubt that what I did was to act like a power gamer to see just how far I could push the limits of this list to find holes that need plugging. Intended, or not, the present list flips a couple of years of work, and JJ?s original design concepts for it, right on it?s very head. The focus of this list has turned from a slow acting infantry heavy horde army to a much more nimble tank heavy horde army, and this has created far more problems then it has fixed. Whether I agree with this change in direction, or not, is irrelevant, JJ is the big boss that decides what stays and what goes and I hate to see work being done on something that is more then likely going to be given the axe by JJ. Some will now, of course, post ?How do you know what JJ is, or isn?t, going to do concerning th enew direction we have given the list?? Because from day one JJ has given the thumbs down to every attempt to do exactly what is being attempted right now, and I have been there through it all, and this isn?t really that new of an idea. (1) Special Rules (1A) Objectives This is a good idea that has been around for awhile, and it is nice to see it get some serious playtesting to see if it works. (1B) Break Their Spirit Another good idea that has been bouncing around for awhile, and it is also a good idea that deserves to get some serious playtesting. (1C) Spawning Still another good idea that has been around for awhile, and it is really nice to see it is also getting some playtesting. However the band aid fix of making AV/DC 3pts falls short of solving the problem being created by the entire tank focus problem created by the new list. (1D)Tie Breaker I do understand the intention here, and I do understand the fluff behind it, but it also doesn?t solve the problem it was designed to fix. In a couple of years of playing Epic-A it has been my experience that the majority of Tie Breakers result in around a 50% point loss to both sides, this little fact jumped out as I read the rule and I proceeded to design a Nid army that couldn?t lose a Tie Breaker. In the couple of battles that I used this list in my point losses hovered just below 1,000 points, in a 3,000 point army, in short if a Ti8e Breaker had occurred I was in no real danger of losing it. Maybe this rule should be changed to half the number of brood creatures, rounded down, and double points for synapse and independent formations. (1E) War Engine Regeneration All I can say here is this one is sheer brilliance! It?s clean, simple, functional, and not even close to being over the top, just brilliant! My only suggestion is we may want to try it at 5+ to see if that would work and still not be over the top. (1F) Agility I can already see JJ putting the axe to this one and saying use walker instead. In truth it is not hard to see why as I myself have come across animals, both large and small, that have gotten themselves all tangled up in a briar patch or a bramble in the woods. Dump it and just use walker. (1G) Synapse Opponents are finding the ability for synapse creatures to combine, at a moments notice it seems to them, as not only confusing, but also down right beardy. I can understand the confusion as the rule itself doesn?t really seem all that clear, and itself doesn?t seem to set any real limits on it?s use. This rule should either be better clarified, with some definite restrictions on it (Like, declare at the start of the battle),or something similar. Personally my vote would to be to give the Hive Tyrant and the Vituperator the ?commander? ability and just drop the entire mixed synapse creature idea, it would have the advantage of being simpler, cleaner, and not the addition of another special rule. Another complaint was the Tyranid Warriors ability to technically be ?out of formation? with another Tyranid Warrior while still being in formtaion by being within 5cms of any unit from the swarm. I myself do not see this as a problem because it only effects one formation, and the Swarm itself will set the limits needed. (2) The Army List (2A) Synapse Creatures About the only real oddball here is the Hive Tyrant with wings, maybe, just maybe, it should have it?s armor dropped to 5+ and it?s cost dropped to +25pts to make it more available. (2B) Independents The 6 to 9 Genestealer Swarm is an excellent idea as it allows the players to decide if they want a small rear area security swarm, or a larger frontline swarm. Some felt that nine of them for 225pts was a bit low, but only playtesting will show if this is true or not. (2C) Uncommon Broods Besides the ?50% of points? issue, which is discussed later, only the Biovore felt out of place. The increased exposure for it being LV makes me think that it should be lowered to 25pts(See discussion on Biovores later for more details). (2D) Common Broods With the Ravaner now being 5+ armor, and thanks to the increased exposure created by it being LV, it is definitely overpriced at 30pts each. If the present stats stand, a drop to 20 to 25pts may be more in line with their true value to the horde (See the discussion on Ravaners later for more details). (3) Unit Data Sheets (3A) Overview The entire ?claw and how many attacks? has been cleaned up nicely, and the entire critical hits explanation as it refers to those extra attacks is now very clear and simple to understand, well done! (3B) Expecorator As the Expecorator is going to spend most of the battle in, or behind, cover deep in the friendly half of the table opponents are going to have a hard time getting at it anyways. Something tells me that the DC-4 may just be a bit too high for this unit, and that it might be better if it were DC-3. (3C) Lictors Sorry, but this one is a real mess with all the players that saw it eaying something along the lines of, ?They?re kidding, right?? I have to agree with them, and upon reflection it shouldn?t be too hard to see why they are reacting that way. Also, if they are reacting that way it is a sure bet JJ is going to see it that way too, and that would not be good. Scout, Teleport, 1st Strike, these all fit the fluff, and do make sense, however the remaining ?abilities? that have been glued on are debatable as to fluff, need, or effectiveness. (commander): Ok, yes the Lictors leave a scent trail to lead the swarms to all the good eats. However, this scent trail left for other bugs to follow falls far short of providing the coordination that would be needed to put together and carry out an assault by combined swarms. This ability should remain the job of synapse creatures and not brood creatures like Lictors. (Loner): Yes Nid players could go nuts, get a whole bunch of Lictor formations, and try to teleport their way to victory, and to some extent other armies can do this also. I understand that the idea behind loner is to prevent this from occurring. But wouldn?t it be better, and easier, to just drop this special, special, rule and just put a limit on the number of swarms allowed to be fielded like maybe 0-3? (Agility): Already discussed above. (Light Vehicle): I can go either way on this one, as Lictors function alone and not as part of a swarm it is better they be LV or infantry. (Invulnerable Save): I could also go either way on this one, I think just making them Infantry with 4+ armor and dropping both LV and Invulnerable save would be better then LV, 5+ armor and invulnerable save. (3D) Ravaners I can see the intent here is to give the Nid Tanks a bullet screen, that whole tank focus thing again, thus turning them into something JJ never intended them to be. While at teh same time allowing them to still work with infantry swarms. My gut feeling is that JJ would give this one the axe right out of the blocks as he would see no real good reason for doing it. I also can see the flip side of the Ravaners and spawning  as, next to tanks, they are THE unit to spawn back over both Termagaunts and Hormogaunts. A possible way to fix that problem would be to give spawning points directly to each unit with the real change being Tanks and DC are 3pts, Ravaners 2pts and Hormogaunts/Termagaunts are 1pt. My gut feeling is that Ravaners should be Infantry, 4+ Armor, Speed 20cm, CC4+, FF5+, Spawn 2pts, and cost 30pts each. As an alternative maybe drop the armor to 5+ and the points to 20 to 25pts each. (3E) Hormogaunts/Termagaunts My real problem here isn?t the stat lines for these two units, those are just fine, the problem occurrs when they are combined with Ravaners that have a move of 15cm and are also infiltrators. Now Nid players can put together some big, ugly, and nasty swarms that can easily garrison right up to mid-table. Then, without moving one cm, and because they all can infiltrate, they will have successfully boxed an opponent into their half of the table! After the first turn , and an advance move is all that is really needed, an opponent will find their entire force under threat of attack with nowhere to move too, and no chance to react to the Nid deployment. Properly proportioned with Ravaners, to eat bullets, these swarms take the firepower of most of an army to remove, leaving them exposed to the assaults of the rest of the Nid army. In three battles, using the army I will present later, I did just that and not a single one of the battles was even close. Hormogaunts and Termagaunts with 0+ armor cannot accomplish this task, but once Ravaners are thrown into the mix they can do it with ease (See Ravaners above for suggested changes) (3F) Carnifexes Allowing the Nid players to spend 50% of their points on uncommon brood units hasn?t increased our use of true tanks, instead it has made the Carnifex the unit of choice from the uncommon section. The army list I have given below spends 1,000 points on Carnifexes. Heck it?s a no brainer as these monsters can be mixed to fend off FF assaults, are fearless so opponents cannot drive them off, have 4+ RA armor requiring a ton of firepower to remove them, and with a move of 15cm the entire lot of them can be garrisoned right up at mid-table. The question is why would you want to take anything else? Throw two gaunt/ravaner swarms, as described above, on to each flank of this swarm of Carnifexes and an opponent is stuck with a nightmare situation without a solution! Either this entire Tank Focus/Speed The Nids Up idea has to be dropped, or heavily modified, or Carns need to be seriously reworked, which would be real sad in my book. My vote is to drop the Tank Focus/Nid Speed Up. (3G) Biovore I really do like the new stats as it does make them a direct swarm support weapon, but making them LV leaves them really exposed if they are in an all infantry swarm, hence defeating the entire idea. Make them infantry like Siege support guns are, it won?t hurt, really. 3,000pt Army List Used by Jaldon 1st Swarm 3xTyranid Warriors, 9xRavaners, 16xHormogaunts 2nd Swarm 3xTyranid Warriors, 10xRavaners, 16xHormogaunts 3rd Swarm 1xHive Tyrant, 12xCarnifexes 4th Swarm 1xHive Tyrant, 8xCarnifexes 5th Independent Swarm 1xHierophant, 6xMyecetic Spores _________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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Chroma	Post subject: [Lists] Call me stupid, but....... Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:05 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Thanks for the commentary Jaldon! ?I've been doing a lot of the stuff for the recent WIP lists, so I'll try to address some of your comments in the near future. One question, have you tried using the 3000 point army you've got listed at the end? ?How has it worked? As well, I'm really hoping Maksim hears from Jervis some time soon so we can finally find out what is going on. _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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Jaldon	Post subject: [Lists] Call me stupid, but....... Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:22 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.	Yes, Eldar, Orks and IG. All three battles were over by the end of turn three, enemy mostly wiped out and boxed in. Jaldon _________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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Markconz	Post subject: [Lists] Call me stupid, but....... Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:05 am
Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand	Many good points there Jaldon. I broadly agree with most of your sentiments. _________________ http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
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Chroma

Post subject: [Lists] Call me stupid, but....... Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:56 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

Intended, or not, the present list flips a couple of years of work, and JJ?s original design concepts for it, right on it?s very head. The focus of this list has turned from a slow acting infantry heavy horde army to a much more nimble tank heavy horde army, and this has created far more problems then it has fixed. Whether I agree with this change in direction, or not, is irrelevant, JJ is the big boss that decides what stays and what goes and I hate to see work being done on something that is more then likely going to be given the axe by JJ. Some will now, of course, post ?How do you know what JJ is, or isn?t, going to do concerning the new direction we have given the list?? Because from day one JJ has given the thumbs down to every attempt to do exactly what is being attempted right now, and I have been there through it all, and this isn?t really that new of an idea. 'Tooth and claw" have always been JJ's bywords for the Tyranid list, which I always took to mean an army that couldn't just sit back and shoot its way to victory. ?As to "slow acting", I'm not sure where that comes from? but I sure consider SR1 to be slow enough. ?*laugh* The initial EPIC lists for the Tyranids were put out before the latest 40K Codex and all the changes that entailed (and I was shocked to discover that Jervis's name is no where to be found in the credits! ?*sigh*). ?As well, the list has always been described as a "Phase IV: Subdual" list. ?Unfortunately, the description of what kind of creatures make up such an army seems somewhat at odd with just having hordes of infantry. "The ground swarms are continuously reinforced with increasingly powerful contingents of Tyranid Warriors, bio-artillery and specialised organisms like the Carnifex assault-beasts and Hive Tyrants. As resistance lines stabilise they are infiltrated or smashed with coordinated wave attacks and mycetic spore drops. Centres of resistance are surrounded, besieged by the gathering of increasingly large and powerful swarms until they are overrun." I believe a much more crawl-n-claw army would be better represented by a Phase III: Attack based organization of units (which is something I really think should be explored as well!) than Phase IV, and I'd love to hear Jervis's thoughts on this. Okay, I'm going to try and respond to some of the perceived issues now: (1D)Tie Breaker I do understand the intention here, and I do understand the fluff behind it, but it also doesn?t solve the problem it was designed to fix.

I don't believe the enemy should gain any kind of reward for killing Brood creatures, so the simple solution is probably to make Synapse Creatures worth three times their value in Tie Breaker, since they truly are the only "important" units on the battlefield. ?The "double value" idea was put in for playtesting and I haven't seen nor heard of many games going to tie-breaker against 'Nids so hadn't gotten much feedback about it. ?Doing "the numbers" on paper does seem to indicate a need for some increase in their value when destroyed.

(1F) Agility
I can already see JJ putting the axe to this one and saying use walker instead. In truth it is not hard to see why as I myself have come across animals, both large and small, that have gotten themselves all tangled up in a briar patch or a bramble in the woods. Dump it and just use walker.
Walker just doesn't seem to cover it for some Tyranid creatures. ?Does a Hive Tyrant bumping into a tree and being taken out of action make sense to you? ?A tank can throw a tread or get bogged, but a Tyrant have a (statistical) 1-in-36 chance of going *poof* in the woods just seems wrong to me. ?As well, agility allows for things like bio-titans clambering over buildings like giant spiders, lurking and waiting to strike? which I think is cool! ?*laugh*

(1G) Synapse
Opponents are finding the ability for synapse creatures to combine, at a moments notice it seems to them, as not only confusing, but also down right beardy. I can understand the confusion as the rule itself doesn?t really seem all that clear, and itself doesn?t seem to set any real limits on it?s use.
This rule should either be better clarified, with some definite restrictions on it (Like, declare at the start of the battle),or something similar. Personally my vote would to be to give the Hive Tyrant and the Vituperator the ?commander? ability and just drop the entire mixed synapse creature idea, it would have the advantage of being simpler, cleaner, and not the addition of another special rule.

Ah, this is probably due to a misunderstanding of the Synapse rules. ?Since swarm formations are determined only at the start of each turn, that's the only time Synapse creatures can decide to "join" each other and form a new swarm. ?I shall re-write this to make it clearer.

Another complaint was the Tyranid Warriors ability to technically be ?out of formation? with another Tyranid Warrior while still being in formtaion by being within 5cms of any unit from the swarm. I myself do not see this as a problem because it only effects one formation, and the Swarm itself will set the limits needed.
This appears to be another misunderstanding. ?A Tyranid Synapse formation consists of both the Synapse swarm that make it up and all the Common and Uncommon broods assigned to that Synapse; that totality is the formation. ?The brood units could even be considered as "upgrade" units added to the Synapse swarm. ?Since the whole group is the formation, then the only requirement to be in coherency is to be within 5cm of another formation member.

(2A) Synapse Creatures
About the only real oddball here is the Hive Tyrant with wings, maybe, just maybe, it should have it?s armor dropped to 5+ and it?s cost dropped to +25pts to make it more available.
I quite agree with this, good call.


(3B) Expecorator
As the Expecorator is going to spend most of the battle in, or behind, cover deep in the friendly half of the table opponents are going to have a hard time getting at it anyways. Something tells me that the DC-4 may just be a bit too high for this unit, and that it might be better if it were DC-3.
I agree with this one as well.

(3C) Lictors
Sorry, but this one is a real mess with all the players that saw it eaying something along the lines of, ?They?re kidding, right?? I have to agree with them, and upon reflection it shouldn?t be too hard to see why they are reacting that way. Also, if they are reacting that way it is a sure bet JJ is going to see it that way too, and that would not be good.
Wow, it's funny the difference in responses in different play environments. ?The groups I've played the "Long-list" Lictor in felt that it really captured what Lictors would be like on the EPIC scale. ?Once the initial laughter at the long Notes section was finished, people realized how quickly and easily Lictors die on the battlefield.

(commander): Ok, yes the Lictors leave a scent trail to lead the swarms to all the good eats. However, this scent trail left for other bugs to follow falls far short of providing the coordination that would be needed to put together and carry out an assault by combined swarms. This ability should remain the job of synapse creatures and not brood creatures like Lictors.
Well, viewing it as elite military command-and-control functions might be over-stating the case a bit. ?I see the commander ability as representing the pheromone trails and effects of feeder tendrils of the Lictor. ?And, honestly, in the many games I've played with them, I've gotten off a mere two combined assaults using Lictors. ?They are a real weak link when trying to pull one off. ?*laugh* I just added it to them because I thought it was flavourful.

(Loner): Yes Nid players could go nuts, get a whole bunch of Lictor formations, and try to teleport their way to victory, and to some extent other armies can do this also. I understand that the idea behind loner is to prevent this from occurring. But wouldn?t it be better, and easier, to just drop this special, special, rule and just put a limit on the number of swarms allowed to be fielded like maybe 0-3?
In the new Codex Lictors don't count as "scoring" units, which means they can't take objectives and such. ?They are purely a scout/vanguard unit and preventing them from taking objectives prevents a whole host of issues. ?Teleporting onto an objective in the endgame isn't really a tactic, but a gimmick, one I'd like to keep Lictors from being used for. ?Unit limitations for creatures that would be "plentiful" on the EPIC battlefield always rub me the wrong way, I'd like to avoid having any 0-X units for anything other than Supreme Commanders.

(Light Vehicle): I can go either way on this one, as Lictors function alone and not as part of a swarm it is better they be LV or infantry.
I made them LVs for two basic reasons: 1) Modelling concerns. ?I don't like messing around with the basic rules for modeling units presented in the main rulebook and, as infantry, that would mean a minimum of three Lictors on a base. ?Well, I don't think three Lictors are going to hang out that close together when hunting. ?*laugh* ?Making them LVs allows one per base, which seems more aesthetically pleasing to me. ?2) Lurking Lictors will be the target of *all* weapons carried by nearby troops and, since they tend to operate singly, they'd have a good chance of being rendered combat ineffective by a fusillade of any kind of firepower.

Most people seem to regard LV status as a bug (no pun intended!), but I consider it a feature and it really allows one to model the abilities of those "big infantry" Tyranid creatures.

(Invulnerable Save): I could also go either way on this one, I think just making them Infantry with 4+ armor and dropping both LV and Invulnerable save would be better then LV, 5+ armor and invulnerable save.
This was changed from the earlier reinforced armour to invulnerable save to represent the Lictor's camouflage and hiding abilities; I think it works, and feels a lot more appropriate than reinforced armour.

(3D) Ravaners
I can see the intent here is to give the Nid Tanks a bullet screen, that whole tank focus thing again, thus turning them into something JJ never intended them to be. While at teh same time allowing them to still work with infantry swarms. My gut feeling is that JJ would give this one the axe right out of the blocks as he would see no real good reason for doing it.
Actually, the intent was to make them vulnerable to AT fire, because that is specifically mentioned in the Ravener write-up in the new Codex! ?*laugh* ?Unforseen consequences, I suppose.

I also can see the flip side of the Ravaners and spawning as, next to tanks, they are THE unit to spawn back over both Termagaunts and Hormogaunts. A possible way to fix that problem would be to give spawning points directly to each unit with the real change being Tanks and DC are 3pts, Ravaners 2pts and Hormogaunts/Termagaunts are 1pt.
In the next WIP list I think I'm going to go with [b]ragnarok[b]'s idea of 1 for INF, 2 for LV, and 3 for AV in spawning cost. ?This might balance things out a bit better.

(3F) Carnifexes
Allowing the Nid players to spend 50% of their points on uncommon brood units hasn?t increased our use of true tanks, instead it has made the Carnifex the unit of choice from the uncommon section.[quote]
Hmmm? I've considered reducing the Uncommon Brood percentage to 33%, but this is the first real complaint I've read about it at 50%. ?Carnifexes are essentially tooth and claw warriors, thought I've found it hard to get them into base contact very often.

[quote]Either this entire Tank Focus/Speed The Nids Up idea has to be dropped, or heavily modified, or Carns need to be seriously reworked, which would be real sad in my book.

My vote is to drop the Tank Focus/Nid Speed Up.
Since I haven't played a full load out of Carnies, I haven't seen this problem. ?Since they are supposed to be a powerful creature (and they are in the current list), maybe they need their points increased, that may be the simple solution; perhaps 65 or 75 points? they do seem roughly equivalent to Ork Stompas.

As to the "Nid Speed Up", I'm still not sure what you're referring to. ?Hormagaunts and Raveners have been brought down to 15cm infiltrator from 20cm infiltrator. ?Since they could always be garrisoned with a Synapse Node, they haven't gained any new mobility. (And 50 points for a forward delivery system for a 40cm engage always seemed like a good deal for me!). ?Could you elaborate on what you see as this "speed up"?

(3G) Biovore
I really do like the new stats as it does make them a direct swarm support weapon, but making them LV leaves them really exposed if they are in an all infantry swarm, hence defeating the entire idea. Make them infantry like Siege support guns are, it won?t hurt, really.
They were made LVs over a similar concern to Raveners, both modelling and game effects. ?As LVs, I still mix them with infantry (and Raveners) or I'll park a brood around a Node on garrison. ?I feel the fear of taking AT shots is overblown when discussing LVs at most times. ?Generally AT shots have worse chances to hit than AP and there's still cover and positioning and all that? but that's another debate.

Well, I hope I've been somewhat coherent in my response; I'm still suffering with some food poisoning after-effects? must counter-evolve faster!

I'll respond to your Carnifex Terror army in another post.