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Thoughts on the Tau Empire

 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:01 pm 
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I found your argument very good.  I do belive the Tau have much potential to become a big power in the 40K universe.

At the same time I truely believe that currently the Tau are around simply because the Imperium cannot direct the needed resources to deal with them.  There are simply more important things to worry about than the expansion of a somewhat peaceful, on a realative scale, if asertive race.

And I think that will be the constant story because the Tau are very popular.  So in GW terms you are not going to kill something that sells.  To use an old military term reinforce success not defeat.

So the Tau are here the Tau will expand and maybe will not live in fear of having the Imperium get it stuff togethor.  But if I was a common Tau citizen I wouldn;t worry about it much.  It's not going to happen any time soon.


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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:07 am 
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Its a good arguement - however I'm with the view that if the Imperium had the chance it would wipe them out. If Cadia and Armegedon were stabilised and the forces mobilised against the tyranids would come there way as well. Of course thats a big if :)
The human battlefleets can be massive - the one that hit Behemouth was 200 strong and that was mobilised in a very short time frame (considering how long it takes Imperial assets to fully mobilise it wasn't the entirety of ships availible locally).
Indeed, the marines have somewhere in the region of 10,000 capital ships availible to them, and they are not the Imperiums main space strength!

The saving grace of course could be the Imperium wanting planets as planetside the Tau are of better quality than the Imperiums foot troops, the Imperial Guard.

Take a look at Facist Germany (very similar in some ways to the Tau) and Stalinist Russia. Sure Russia won, but they took 25-28 million casualties in the war and were nearly out of usable infantry. Maybe Patten was onto something :)

The Guad do run out - though this could simply mean that orbital sanction would be applied to the Taus detriment.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:47 am 
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I'm sorry Chris, but quite honestly I can't see where the Tau-similar-to-Nazi-Germany argument comes from. (And although I fully realise this is a fictional game universe, and despite the effort in helping out with the Epic and BFG Tau lists - as well as working on additions of my own - I should not consider your comment to be intended as anything other than a candid statement. However, I find this remark a deeply unsettling one, which derailed me completely when trying to put together some responses to Xisor's comments on some fluff for the CPF, and one which I find very difficult not to take personally. I apologise for my failure in this regard)

In terms of military structures, doctrines and training regimens, the Fire Caste are far more akin to the German, French, US and other modern (21st Century) Western armed forces in their deployment and their operational norm - the closest fit to the Wehrmacht of the Third Reich would more likely be found in the ranks of the approporiately-helmeted Steel Legions of Armageddon.

In terms of political system, how one could confuse the ruthless, highly xenophobic, totalitarian state under the sway of an overwhelming personality cult centred on a rather... unpleasant individual with the generally benevolent, tolerant and pluralistic oligarchy under the Aun (for all we know the Aun operate as a democracy within their own caste - putting their government on a level setting politically as early modern democratic states, such as the UK in the early 19th century, where you could only vote if you were a white male landowner, or in classical Athens, if you were an Athenian male citizen. Without universal suffrage, a democracy is, in truth, an oligarchy - and in the Tau's case, the Aun are fairly secure in their position, as they are quite willing to involve the other castes and races of the Empire in a wide range of economic, military, diplomatic and political spheres) is quite beyond me, to be honest.

And in terms of grand strategy, while Nazism sought to enslave or exterminate the 'lesser races' sitting on what they claimed should be prime German real estate, and were inevitably confronted with the need to conquer the vast Soviet Union - another fun place to be... - to do so, the Tau Empire has no such policy (except against the Orks, and probably the Tyranids) Every world with former Imperial inhabitants has been welcomed into the Empire, despite - or more likely, precisely because - the Tau knowing full well that the Imperial Navy would, had, show no such mercy or acceptance over the skies of Tau colonies lost in the Lithesh War. Plus, there are a vast number of systems in the Eastern Fringe and Ultima Segmentum which has no Imperial or Ork presence, either uninhabited or home to a human or alien society, to whom the Tau offer a place in the Empire (or a handy trade pact if they agree to at least maintain neutrality with the tau'va)

And why do you think that so many humans in the Tau Empire are glad to be rid of Imperial rule? Because that ruthless totalitarianism and pervasive personality cult operated in the Third Reich is all too closely mirrored by the chaps in charge on Terra.


Sorry if I am over-reacting, but I just could not let your comment go unchallenged.


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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:52 am 
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I don't understand why it's relevent to me!  :8:  :8:

Otherwise, though, I largely agree.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:31 am 
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I've said many times the Tau are the most modern army on the board, in a military sense ... much like 21st Century NATO/Western Europe. And I feel the Imperial Empire is some where between Hitler and Stalin ideologically ! :oops:

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:25 am 
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I think that we should avoid the whole Tau = Nazi issue here. I believe that the comment by Chris was a throw away line, and while I respect his opinion and his right to it, I dont agree. The general outlook of the Tau is the total opposite and can be considered more 'enlightened'. Method of war, outlook on different cultures and mode of operation are all a world away (literally!  :D ) in my mind. I would very much request that this discussion steers away from political metaphores in this sphere as it is walking on thin ice.

I think that the undisputed roots of the Tau in the Oriental and Anime culture also strike against the ideology of the Axis coming to the front in their 'pop culture'.

Xisor - I dont think that this is totally relevant to you, rather that it put Nerroth off when he was composing a seperate reply to one of your posts. :laugh:

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:10 pm 
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Unless he was comparing one expansionist empire fighting with a much larger totalitarian state (Tau v Imperium of Man) with the Germans attacking the Russians in WW2.

Personally, I see the Tau as being most closely related to Japan in the early 1900s, leading up to WW2, rather than anything in Europe (and not just because of the Anime look and battlesuits).  The Tau Empire is starving for resources, and will take any action to get those resources.

Yes, IF the Imperium could pool the resources to smash the Tau, the Tau don't have a snowball's chance in hell.  The problem is that the Imperium can't spare the manpower.  

IA3 says that Taros was a major expedition from the Tau's perspective.  But Taros was barely a blip on the screen to the Imperium, so small that it's possible that the High Lords will never hear of it.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:52 pm 
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I believe the quote from the IX article was "If indeed such a thing is still possible", refering to the prospect of exterminating the Tau.

IMO, in light of the Eye of Terror Campaign, the Tau have a slow march to take the Galaxy from the Imperium. On the whole, the Imperium simply cannot combat the Tau decisively, they may get lucky and wipe out the Tau, but I don't see it personally.

Empire-wise, yes, the Tau are roughly equivalent with expansive intentions to the early 20th Century Japanese, but otherwise there's not too much connection I'd say.

I wonder though, which Imperial world is most closely related to Pearl Harbour? Somewhere in Ultramar I guess, or perhaps Kar Duniash itself.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:02 pm 
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I can explain my percieved simularity between 'national socialism' and actual conduct in the 30's/40's, but you have to pm me if you want to know!




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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:46 am 
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It's true that the Imperium with its human-supremacist views of Xenos extermination is much closer to Nazi racial policy than the Tau.

However, the Tau caste system isn't exactly what I'd call ideal:"You have your place. Stay in it!"

And Tau are just as imperialist and expansionist as the Imperium, and if someone doesn't buy _their_ view of the greater good (i.e. Tau taking over the galaxy) that someone is crushed.

And let's see what happens to the humans when rogue psykers and possessions start to appear in the worlds Tau have conquered.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:40 pm 
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Hmmm ... the Tau are Imperialists ... like all the other Epic Races ... save for the 'Nids who are just looking for a good meal ! :laugh:  That being said, the Tau are my fav new force and the only really modern army in Epic, IMO ...  :;):  And hey, these little Grays and their carinvore allies just "want a piece of the action " ! :blues:  "Vini, get the car ... we got have to have a sit down with Tony  !" :cool: :laugh:

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:13 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 16 Dec. 2005 (08:46))
However, the Tau caste system isn't exactly what I'd call ideal:"You have your place. Stay in it!"

And Tau are just as imperialist and expansionist as the Imperium, and if someone doesn't buy _their_ view of the greater good (i.e. Tau taking over the galaxy) that someone is crushed.

Oh come on. What real indication is there for them simply exterminating people who don't agree? I believe it's far more subversive than that. Constant trade barrages, infiltrating their 'thinking', turning their ideals to a more suitable and in line version. Working with diplomacy and trade to slowly make it inevitable that they'd want to join the Empire. Not exactly insidious so much as distasteful. It's not only the Shas and Kor that can "conquer" a world, they just do it faster than the Fio and the Por!

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:17 pm 
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Two issues here. To me, this is not a questions of keeping the ranks in the right place, but more along the lines of the fact that, for example, the Fire Warriors are so indoctrinated to know that this is their place and the best place for them. They dont need to be kept down or in line, as they dont have subversive thoughts.

This brings about the second thing, which is one of the most interesting things about the Tau Empire to me, and that is the role that propaganda plays in the entire situation. Whether this propaganda is just hollow sales talk designed to indoctrinate and deceive, or whether this is a true representation of how beneficial the Tau Empire is, is just a question of perspecive and bias.

To me, the Tau Empire reflects the modern day theatre of war more than the other races, and also the direction that modern day conflicts are taking.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:01 pm 
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Codex: City of Death- Tau Invades Tehran?

That said, there's nothing to indicate descent or a need to enforce an Orwellian system upon the Tau. At least not yet. Rumour has it that the 3rd Phase Expansion is actually known to the Tau as The Third Phase Crusade ?:80: ?:angry: ?:/ Who know's where it could go!?

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 Post subject: Thoughts on the Tau Empire
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:40 am 
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You have to remember that "The Greater Good" means the "Greater Good of the Ethereal Caste". The amount of effort used to recover just one of them in Fire Warrior was extremely revealing. Also remember the Ethereal have an opium like effect on the Tau around them, helping them to keep them in line.

There are other little things that worry me about the Tau.

1) The sudden apperance of the Ethereal Caste just when they were needed.
1a) The Ethereal look very much like an engineered sub-species. who made them?

2) The Warp storm that suddenly appeared when the Imperium tried to wipe out the Tau on first contact.
2a) Maybe a coincidence but a bit fishy.
2b) Possibly suggesting the Old Ones are still with us or maybe they are marked by Tzeentch for some long game?

3) Farsight finding his sword on worlds marked as off bounds by the Ethereals.
3a) The sword looks very much like Necron technology, are they linked with the developement of the Tau or were the Ethereals told not to go near these world as the great enemy had a hold on them?

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