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Chroma	Post subject: [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:48 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Quote (ragnarok @ 13 Dec. 2005 (08:59)) A3.25. ?Can I be added? Sorry ragnarok!  I've just been copying that appendix from Maksim's original! I hope I can get added too!  *laugh* _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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Chroma	Post subject: [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:51 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Oh yeah, one other thing I changed: -bio-plasma breath to 30cm/D3xAA5+ instead of using the template (template stays for ground attack). Using a template for AA is rather fiddly... since all models under the template are hit does that mean ground targets can get hit when it's used for AA and all that bother... I've been following the ATML development of the template into a BP weapon and I'm thinking, once they finalize it, we should look at standardizing the use of the template across lists. _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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Markconz

Post subject: [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:35 pm

Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand

Quote (Chroma @ 13 Dec. 2005 (19:47)) Quote (Markconz @ 13 Dec. 2005 (20:29)) What happened with the carni?? Way too overpowered. Ditch the bioplasma, give it 'spine banks 15cm small arms FF6+'. Reduce MW attacks to +1. Hmmm... an extra attack might have crept onto the Screamer-Killer during editting, but I still think it should be a pure CC beast, like it's 40k counterpart which has no shooting attacks. ?Now that I've worked out the fearless thing with them, they've become a *lot* more useful... and they'll always have a problem with skimmers! ?*laugh* ? Tyrant is ok. (They have 1 extra base attack over a carni in 40k but at lower strength, and they can't get as many upgrades as carnis so it balances out). There is also its points to consider ?- if we boost it we will have to increase points. It does need something in its statline to say it has small arms (maybe just added to VC statline). As long as it has a shooting attack, I don't think it needs to have a secondary small arms attack listed as well... what would it even be? ?I almost feel that the Tyrant needs some kind of FF +1A weapon... Psychic Scream or something. I would like to have a serious playtest of harridans and do something more worthwhile with them... they are too expensive and elite at present I think. Hmmm... 150 points for 4DC of skimming death doesn't seem that expensive to me. ?I don't use them that often, but when I have, they've seemed pretty effective, popping up over woods while the rest of its brood fires from cover has worked well (just don't hit your children with the breath template! ?*sigh*) As to the commander on Lictors... I'd like to see attempts at abuse first... cuz *sigh* ?I really like the feel of it.

The trouble is 'traditional' screamer killers used to have a FF option (the bioplasma), and the current builds often have one as well (eg spine banks - only 5 points on a >100 point model). Also on a costly investment like a carni it makes sense to give it some small defence against skimmer enemies. (I was actully under the impression we had already discussed this )

Regarding the tyrant - oops for some reason I was under the impression that you needed small arms abiltiy listed to FF (temproary brain lapse - please ignore ? ).

I wouldn't give the tyrant anything else - It is a very tough ?synapse source which alone makes it worth a lot of points. On top of that it is also one of the most lethal assault units in the game (Commander, 2+ CC with +1A MW, FF4).

Regarding Harridans:
I'm not saying harridans are not effective for their points (indeed the reverse is true!) I would like to see them toned down. Orginally their role was a synapse source and boost for gargoyles rather than anything else - now they are a deadly combat unit insteadl - which can even transport Hive Tyrants! ? ?

Ie the problem with Harridans is that they have been priced and given abilities which destroy their original role of being a suitable synapse source for gargoyles - gargoyles currently have no way to get cheap synapse). To bring this back in line I would like to see something like the following which should justify a points reduction (to 100 points):

-DC3 (and critical kills outright same as other SHT - harridan models are relatively small - I'm not sure why it has been given so much DC at present, especially when a dom only has 6 DC currently!!), CC4+ (they have delicate wings to protect and shouldn't have the same prowess as titans ), FF4+ (Bioplasma Breath should make FF potential nastier).

- Gargantuan claws - replace with Monstrous claws and make them MW... (a flappy bird thing just shouldn't have the strength of a titan).

- Biocannons - make Venom cannons. 30cm Ap5/AT6. These guns just are not that big on the model (eg compare to exocrine, dominatrix cannon), plus it already has a nasty MW breath attack and long range shooting does not suit this creatures primary role of being synapse for Gargoyles.

- Can transport up to 6 gargoyles (ie one 40k brood). Leave the other transport options for the vituperator. The vituperator probably also needs work but I'll leave that for another day...

And good idea on the using the standardised conventions for template weapons form the AMTL list! ?