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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Skyray  Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:52 pm |
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Location: Singapore
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Version 4.3.2 has raised more stylistic issues about the Skyray vehicle, which I felt deserved its own thread.
The most recent stats are a result of discussion about making this unit a little more dedicated, perhaps a little cheaper, and less of an 'all rounder'.
If the current restriction on markerlights not affecting aircraft remains, there is the possibility to increase the AA punch of this vehicle to compensate. As far as I see it, there are a nuber of issues:
Flak capability
The current design is slightly under-powered, but at 50 points I feel that this is appropriate. Any upgrade would probably need point increase. I would like 2xAA5+ but I feel that this may be over-the-top for the unit (although is this any more powerful than an Eldar Firestorm?). With Tau aircraft, even with a less powerful AA unit the Tau probably have less to worry about from the sky than other races.
Seekers
These were removed from the stats as they seem a little superfluous and dont seem to provide the punch that this vehicle would need. However, they are a staple of the Devilfish chassis and are present on other variants. Views?
Markerlights V Aircraft
Can I get views on this? I must admit that I didnt expect the strong response which this has recieved. I am not sure how this ability would be justified, but would consider making the AA a more standard unit by up-ing the AA ability of certain units individually and balancing them this way.
Thanks.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Honda
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Post subject: Skyray Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:44 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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Ok, I'll bite first
Flak capability[I]
The current design is slightly under-powered, but at 50 points I feel that this is appropriate. Any upgrade would probably need point increase. I would like 2xAA5+ but I feel that this may be over-the-top for the unit (although is this any more powerful than an Eldar Firestorm?). With Tau aircraft, even with a less powerful AA unit the Tau probably have less to worry about from the sky than other races.
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First off, I think this is flying against the current portrayal of what the Skyray is supposed to bring to the table.
Yes, its initial incarnation was as a dedicated AA vehicle, but the most current versions in IA3 and as heavily rumored in the new codex show this vehicle performing a fire support role with an upgrade to AA. We should not remove the seekers.
Markerlights V Aircraft[U]
Can I get views on this? I must admit that I didnt expect the strong response which this has recieved. I am not sure how this ability would be justified, but would consider making the AA a more standard unit by up-ing the AA ability of certain units individually and balancing them this way.
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Please do not remove this capability. This is uniquely Tau and allows us to provide a safe umbrella of AA that is supported by several vehicles.
One of the cornerstones of the Tau is their ability to leverage units for multiple purposes. This gives us options and keeps us flexible on the battlefield.
The Tau come across as a very pragmatic race in the fluff. This "could" be interpreted as getting the best use of their units, i.e. leveraging capabilities vs. complete specialization. We have already taken steps in this direction by allowing us to mix and match assets to provide fit for purpose formations, please do not start cutting back on capabilities when there doesn't appear to be a game balance issue.
My two yen...
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Steele
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Post subject: Skyray Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:33 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am
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Location: Duisburg , Germany
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CS,
If I get you right,you are concerned with ML as a targetting device for high altitude flyer? Well, todays technology uses Radar and has a Range of about 15km. I don?t know how this compares to Jervis Scale?o?meter , but it?s definitely over the 30cm Mark for 1km. as most air-to-ground-weapons have ranges from 15cm to 45cm ,the flyer also has to come to lower altitudes if he wants to use all Weapons, or not? But this would instill a rule change for different altitude attacks, and of course all other flak tanks should be rewamped as well. So long we say that an aircraft to ground attack is made at an altitude for every Flakweapon reachable I can?t see why Markerlights shouldn?t be a viable way to target aircraft.
Cheers!
Steele
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Quid pro Quo
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Skyray Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:22 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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In IA3, the (40k) Skyray is the only Hammerhead chassis that does not have the option to add additional Seeker Missiles. ?Every other vehicle, except the Tetra, is capable of carrying at least 2 Seeker Missiles.
Personally, considering the (lack of) armor on most flyers (THawks and Vampires excepted, and even they are fairly vulnerable to the 'Seeker Missiles' a Skyray carries in 40k), I think that 2x AT6+/AA5+ (increasing to 2xAA4+ for marked targets, right?) is more representative of how dangerous a Skyray is to aircraft. ?Also, the fluff in IA3 portrays Skyrays as being highly prized confirmed kills by the IN, more valued than any other. 2xAA6+ just doesn't cut it for that description.
[edit- RL comparison deleted, my apologies for bringing it up]
Also, could we just table this discussion until we see what GW is going to do to the Skyray when the Tau Empire codex comes out in March?
Any discussion here could be in the completely opposite direction from where GW takes the Skyray. (Besides, I'm not that impressed with the FW rules for it in 40k ATM).
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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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Tactica
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Post subject: Skyray Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:35 am |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
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| Quote (CyberShadow @ 12 Dec. 2005 (11:52)) | |
Seekers
These were removed from the stats as they seem a little superfluous and dont seem to provide the punch that this vehicle would need. However, they are a staple of the Devilfish chassis and are present on other variants. Views?
Markerlights V Aircraft
Can I get views on this? I must admit that I didnt expect the strong response which this has recieved. I am not sure how this ability would be justified, but would consider making the AA a more standard unit by up-ing the AA ability of certain units individually and balancing them this way.
Thanks.
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This is how it fires its own seekers at AA... so, this is kind of getting to the point to where its not really a skyray at all.
The network markers allow it to track two different targets and fire two different seekers at the enemy aircraft. As its on an AA mount, it hits them better than the typical AA unit. This is due to the drone assisted network marker lights.
Seakers are what punch into the armor of planes. Seekers in E:A are as strong as a battlecannon if there's a mark and sustained fire.... interestingly enough, they require the sustain fire to be that strong against armor.
The battlecannon is a base 4+ and seekers are a base 6+, 5+ with mark, and 4+ with sustain. The abstract in the seeker not being potent enough comes in conversion from 40K to epic.
In 40K, they are both S8... the battlecannon gets to use the ordinance chart... the seeker can hit the enemy on 2+ if marked... so a bit of a wash in which should be stronger against any targets
But I digress.
2 shot Seekers, markers, and SMS are what make a skyray what it is.
I think taking this away is a mistake, and definitely venturing away from what is Tau about the skyray, however, its just my view.
Cheers,
_________________
Rob
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baronpiero
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Post subject: Skyray Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:13 pm |
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Actually having any markerlight able to track aircrafts does not seem realistic to me:
- Real world realisticness: just a gut feel, but I don't like the idea much. I would imagine that when you are an infantryman, aircrafts strike you at lightning speed. I doubt you can lock onto the aircraft long enought for a GM to reach it.
- WH40K realisticness: this one is secondary, but is woth considering, I think. In WH40K, basic markerlights hit aircrafts on 6 as would any non-AA weapon. The only one meant for AA use is the skyray's markerlight (hits using BS).
Additionaly, I see AA guided munitions as an embarrassment in any attempt to further devellop the ground use of the markerlight. So, if there is any plan to do so, I would recommend dropping AA GM at least temporarily.
About the wording, I think it would be a lot simpler to:
- drop the exception in the markerlights&GM special rule
- modify the skyray's loadout, by splitting the hunter missiles loadout in two weapons (for example)
Replace...
2x Hunter Missiles 75cm AT6+/AA6+ Guided Missiles
With...
2x Seeker Missiles 75cm AT6+ Guided Missiles
2x Hunter Missiles 75cm AA6+ - (not a guided missile)
you may then tweak the firepower and cost from there.
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