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Black Templars

 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:42 am 
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As a quick reply, it's not my problem with tailoring fleets directly to say an 'all Gothic and Apocalypse' fleet that's a problem, but that in game, even a balanced 'amount' of lances(say 50:50 split, as displayed with the Lunar) we end up with major problems. Examine the Demiurg within a Tau fleet. Would you really spend time trying to attain maximum firing solutions with those meaty weapons batteries when you can assert exceptionally good range Lances against the Marines. Then, when facing off against Heroes and Protectors, the problem is further amplified.

Battlecruisers of the IN can simply focus fire and combine their decent ranged firepower. The problem, as it is, is not on the 'brawling' aspect(even there, a decent broadside will wreak havoc for Marines), rather the simply ease of presenting lances. As long as the lance can see the ship, it can hit it, often much better than a weapons batter on the equivalent solution. 'Abeam vs abeam', lances trounce the Marines. Even then, a simple 45* of the basic 'battle line fleets'(IN, Chaos and Tau ECF) can precent quite a fearsome array of lances against a Marine vessel.

Again, the trouble isn't that it's half the fleet's firepower, it's that it's easily focused and presented against Marines. Against an array of five Imperial Lunars(say in a 2k fleet, with a decent 'balance' across the rest of the fleet, so a couple of BattleCruiserss and likely a battleship, or some light cruisers, and likely some escorts too) how would you suggest a Marine formation does damage?

At range and just deploying thunderhawks, they remain relatively safe from most Imperial broadside Weapons Batteries(range + armour = not to useful), but against the lance aspect, such a formation would be quite impenetrable without suffering significant damage, or impairing of the marine ships. That's not even dealing with or accounting for Nova Cannons.

Even disregarding all of that, I'd still wager that it isn't half a match for a Murder. That said, I've not go the time to wax lyrical on that just yet.

Xisor

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:14 am 
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Hi Xisor,

(SC vs Murder) Against said IN fleet, would a Murder do any better? (that's the basis of my argument about it's points cost!) I would say they stand the 'same' chance of survival!
I'm not saying SC's are invulnerable or anything, just that they are just as good as a Chaos cruiser! (which isn't anything special!)

Weapons: Instead of firing the 2 lances each turn, the SC gets 2 TH's (a possible move/range of 40cm per turn, not as good, but not too different as they are 'ALL'). Also the TH's can take out the IN Torps and/or AC! (of course this can be reversed as well!)
The single broadside of a SC isn't as good at range, but is within 30cm and is more likley to be used within 15cm and in a more damaging arc! Thanks to the 90* turn.

That's it for now,

RayB

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:02 am 
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But really, how likely is it that a Strike Cruiser will really survive to make it to 15cm range? Or rather, how many strike cruisers will make it through with what damage?

As it happens, I'd rate the Murder's chances quite high TBH.  :p They have a decent amount of lances to fire back at the IN, prow on too. Which means they'll be 1) striking from beyond their range 2) facing prow on 3) From generally out of the range 4) with lances that negate armour. It's also more difficult to do lasting damage to the Murder's at range than a strike cruiser(well, hit wise anyway) with lances. 2 Hits do damage to a Strike Cruiser, 3 to a Chaos Cruiser, though equal amounts to cripple.

The gist is, a Chaos Cruiser doesn't 'need to survive' through to the 30cm bracket, chaos can fight back from 45cm. Marines need to make it through. They simply aren't as good if you're not starting out in a more amiable position. Even assaulting a planet with Marines is no Sunday Picnic, which it should be in comparison to the Imperial Navy. Why, the IN can simply bombard defences with Nova Cannons, then punch their way through the debris fields, but Marines again get decimated on the approach.

However, if you really believe the Strike Cruiser is worth as much as a Murder, I'd urge you to quickly post over at Specialist Games where the better 'evaluation' admirals will quickly assert their opinions.

In fact, as soon as this moves to playtest I'd be willing to be it needs rejigging points wise, but, I suppose, in the interests of good development technique(whatever that is), it's perhaps best to actually test it anyway, just to be sure.

Xisor

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:34 pm 
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Hi Xisor,

(SC cost) The Murder can put 2 lances out in the prow, that's a likely 1 hit! What's so great about that!? The SC has TH's instead, which can go through shields and soften up the targets for the SC's on thier way in!"

But ignoring thier roles and abilities! Thier survivablitly is the same!

The SC has a 90* turn which means it can better use terrain as cover. Also it can redirect firepower (or indeed, the entire ship) more easily! And move with escort squadrons!

Although I hate these little contests, a SC would beat a Murder 1 on 1 hands down! Forgetting I said that, it would beat the Murder's abilities against most other fleets, except Eldar! The Murder has to close to be affective just as the SC does, They both have a long range weapon for the time until thier close but it is by no means thier majority weapons strength!

In any case a SC can close the distance more affectively than a Murder if it AAF's in the first turn (it can still launch at full strength!). Where as the Murder would have only 1 lance to fire!

I may post this on the SG Forum under discussion!

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:23 pm 
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Agreed, the Murders lances aren't special, that's why I switched to the better Carnage. :D

But, Ray, you did raise a really good point regarding the costing of the Strike Cruiser.

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:33 pm 
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I may make this post into one of those gripe articles for WR! :D

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:57 am 
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Ray, managed to do some playtesting with the Black Templars? Maybe I will test the Tobari tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:07 pm 
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Hi horizon

Nope, not yet, maybe this week though as I seem to have a lot of free time about to fall on me. (My computer has been broken for well over a week now, this coupled with the holidays is why I've been silent. My computer is not fixed yet so i only have a few moments to finish this post on a borrowed computer, hope to be back online soon!)

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:08 am 
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Here is a top view pic of my Black Templars Venerable Battle Barge (The Eternal Crusader). I'll be entering this ship in the BFG Comp from fanatic (a little late in the day, I know).

Due to personal reasons I haven't felt like painting in quite a while, but over comming my woes I'm back in the game! Speaking of which It looks as though I will now have absolutely terrible internet access for the foreseeable future due to different living arrangements. (My life sucks at the moment!  :evil: )

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:10 am 
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Side view, sorry for the poor quality pic!

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:08 am 
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Hi!

Nice ship conversion, but shouldn't this thread be in with the other Marine lists?

(The Corsair, Craftworld and Dark Eldar are all in the same board, and you aren't goin to convince me Templars are more distinct from other Marines than the diverse Eldar factons are from each other!)


Gary





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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:51 am 
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Hi Nerroth,

This thread is really old! I started it when I was only a mod of this specific part of the Forum!

The Black Templars fleet list will be released through FOM or WR some time soon (when Iget around to writting up the fluff and doing some extensive playtesting!)

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:25 pm 
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I'm gonna polish this fleet off in a a little bit(2 weeks) with background etc, hopefully for the FOM! If anyone has any last thoughts please share them.

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:47 am 
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If FOM rejects ---> Warp Rift!

(did you receive my e-mail about the cwe?)

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