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Tau Leaders

 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:23 pm 
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I disagree, Nerroth. ?The way I see it, the battlesuits are awarded to the outstanding infantry, and IA3 mentions that Broadside service is required before advancement to shas'vre. ?Just because we tend to equip our Commanders differently than the 'line' Crisis suits does not mean that more/extra guns are what the Tau actually give their officers. ?I lean more toward HecklerMD's thoughts here. ?Command is a very different skillset than shooting. ?I know several junior officers that are outstanding shipdrivers, and 'wear the mirrored sunglasses to hide their steely-eyed glare', but have no ability to lead their guys. ?I'm sure Heckler can share a few particularly 'brilliant' officers, too. ?You always put your best shooters in the most shooty position (the 'Tank Ace' to use the IG parlance), and your best commander in the Command position, when you can (I've met a couple junior E4s that were better leaders than the E7 above them).

I still think that a Command Tank should be the Hammerhead with a leader upgrade. ?While the Tau do not completely follow RL examples, I still prefer the Slammers example I used. ?The basic tank has a crew of 2, but the command tank has a different turret, with space for 2 more crew, specifically trained to handle company-wide C&C tasks. ?This is with the slammer's AI setup, which can build a VR conference while bouncing voice and data off meteor/cosmic ray ionization trails in the atmosphere. ?That sounds about as sophisticated as most of the Tau AI. ?

Shas'vre Hammerhead Commander makes more sense to me than a Swordfish. ?Your swordfish are the ubertanks-o-doom?, and should be closer to a light Shadowsword than a Vanquisher, while your commander is busy telling everyone where to go and what to do. ?(let's face it, a 0-1 Command Swordfish isn't real useful to me. ?I'd rather have two Swordfish and a Command Hammerhead instead)

[edit- dang you guys type fast]
Let's look at this again:  A foot 'Fire Warrior' starts out as a Shas'la.  The best Shas'la are promoted to Shas'ui, and either assigned a Battlesuit, or is assigned to a (different?) Shas'la unit to train them.  Shas'ui are either in Stealth armor or Crisis armor, and need to serve a term in Broadside suits to become Shas'vre.  Sometimes they go back to Crisis suits, but sometimes they go straight to Shas'vre (bodyguarding Commanders).  

This information is specific to leg infantry, we have no information about vehicle crews (since we've created about 75% of all vehicles, to use in Epic).  I would assume that there's a similar system, starting with service on a Devilfish (crew of 1), progressing to a Hammerhead (crew of 3), swapping out to a Skyray/Stingray (crew of 2, and a support unit), then going back to a Hammerhead as the 'Ace' or Commander.





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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:59 pm 
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But the tank ace won't necessarily be the shas'vre, but the gunner of the twin Railguns!

If the one person was controlling the vehicle's movement, its weapon systems and guiding the formation in battle, then delegating the biggest gun may be a useful means of maximising efficiency. But with a three-Tau crew, the shas'vre is not the one pulling the trigger or driving the tank - s/he's the one relaying orders from the shas'el to the other AVs in the formation, as well as issuing their own commands when necessary.

And the Swordfish is closer to a Vanquisher than a Shadowsword - which is seen in the twin Railguns having AP/AT, not MW shots (and isn't the rail-Moray the Tau Shadowsword equivalent? Of course, my army can take an even closer equivalent...)


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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:18 pm 
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Quote (Nerroth @ 08 Dec. 2005 (11:32))
If higher ranked officers in thew Shas were following the Earth-based examples you specify, why would a Shas'ui up wander around in a Crisis suit, instead of sticking with a pulse carbine or staying on board a Manta or Dragonet?

Because most of the Tau fluff comes from tales of thier 40K level exploits, which do not include Mantas or Dragonets

On Taros commanders conducted leadership duties as much from the command deck of a Manta, command posts, or sutibly modified command vehicles, as they did from inside a XV8x.  It would have been tactically unwise to have attempted to command large swaths of a battlefront while in a suit, on the move, under fire.

Partly due to their more advanced technology (battlesuits), partly due to their being an alien culture from the other side of the galaxy, the Tau are not supposed to mimic the kind of armed forces we see on Earth (and in part replicated by Elysians and other more 'modern' IG regiments). the Shas see their improved weapon, defence and comms systems as badges of honour as well as of office - see how fancy Shas'O R'myr, or the XV8x suits are compared to regular XV8s, which in turn are a prize dangling before any shas'la in a Devilfish!

Weather we like it or not, the Tau are designed to mimic, or are inspired by, the ultra-modern concepts of warfare, to include non-LOS (over the horizon, ect) shooting, Precision Guided Munitions, and tightly integrated command and control.  Likewise, the IG are meant to mimic early WW II era warfare, with human wave vs blitzkrieg tactics, massed arty (WEEEEEE!), hell, even mounted (on horses) units.  Both ideals are given a Sci-Fi flavor (Gravtanks, las guns, ect) but they have bases in how humans have fought wars and continue to do so.  From this perspective, taking a(nother) cue from the current military, by downgrading a commanders weaponary (or at least not upgrading it) while upgrading his C3 capability cannot be ruled out simply because the Tau are "alien".

You are also comparing units with modular, easily swapable weapons systems (XV8s) to units w/o.  Crisis pilots will upgrade thier own suit because, why not?  Its Easy!  Hell, thats why the XV8s are so darn handy, cause they are customizable!  Hammerheads are a different beast.  You sure as hell cant hot-swap that monster of a turret on a whim.

Also, if the Tau need a leader in a tricked-out battle suit to "lead by example" then how do the stealth/pathfinder groups manage to accomplish missions?

Perhaps the all pervasive Greater Good serves to inspire them and provide them an example to follow, and not a bigger gun / blinged out SF?  Perhaps the responsability and authority is enough to convey to a Tau commander that they have the trust of the Tau people without the need for any shiny fancy gear.  Maybe they get a cool ring?

Thus, a Shas' might answer you such:

The responsability for the lives of my fellow warriors heavy on my mind, I entrusted our cadre's Swordfish to Tau'Bob, who has the keenest eye of us all, and his crew, and I take my place in HH A-01 along side its powerful Advanced C3 Array.

I leave the increased firepower, which some feel is due to one in my position, to my brethren in the Crisis Cadres, whom I've sometimes thought may not ascribe to the Greater good as strongly as others.

We, in the Armor Corps, teach a different mantra:  The Greater Good first, our fellow warriors next, and ourselves last.


Your story made sense for a Crisis Suit perspective, but we are developing a Tank Commander here.  I have told you why a Tau Tank Commander would not want or need a bigger gun, and you have answered with why a Crisis commander would.  But why does a Tau Tank Commander want or need a bigger gun against all the teachings of the greater good?  Lastly, you have yet to address why you feel the need to require a Tau player to chop up expensive resin in order to get a commander for his/her AMHC?

Oh, and I know your willing to chop up the fluff to make it fir the unit, but I want this army to feel different from the IG on more that a fluff level.

Arent you glad I have today off?

I thought I smelled the mix of cordite and rocket exhaust that marks a redleg around here!


My IG Army always takes Manticores.

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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:20 pm 
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HecklerMD, Lion in the Stars, and onyone else with a military POV:  Do you guys get the feeling that the only "Officers" are the Ethereals, and the rest of the entire Tau army are all NCO's?  And I am talking strictly from a combat POV here.  WO's and other NCO's that are more logistic in nature would likely be Earthcaste in my mind.  I mean Shas'els and 'os are commanders, but only in the sense that they are the most experienced NCO's (SMA's to borrow from the American Army, or CWO from the Canadian side), and are running the battle, more than the war.

Anyone else get this feeling that we are missing the whole officer class of how the Ethereals are stuctured, and we are only really looking at the NCO classes in the Tau army?  Are all Ethereals equal, or do they have some sort of mysterious interal ranks system?

If this is the case, then maybe we need to compare the Tau army to a realworld army that very rarely uses Officers in the field, and that uses NCO's in command posistions in line of fire.  Ancient Roman army, or Byzantium army in space?






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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:23 pm 
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Nerroth:  I think we're just going to go 'round and 'round with this.

Would you rather have 6x Hammerheads (one with Leader and Co-Fire) + 2x Swordfish, or 6x Hammerheads + 1 Swordfish with Leader and Co-Fire?

I know which version I'd rather have, and as soon as I can get a fire lit under the local old GW hands, I'll get some games in to test it.

[edit - I have GOT to get more heat in my office! my fingers are too cold to type as fast as you guys!]

RedDevil: ?I agree. ?The Shas' seem to simply be good leaders of troops (senior NCOs), rather than good managers (officers). ?Codex Tau Empire, due in March, is supposed to have more detail about the Etherial Caste, like multiple levels (Aun'la, 'ui, 'vre, 'el, and 'o). ?For reference, the Etherial on Taros was an Aun'vre.

Ugh... ancient Roman/Byzantine army structure.  :8:  :80:





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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:42 pm 
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Quote (Lion in the Stars @ 08 Dec. 2005 (12:23))
I'm sure Heckler can share a few particularly 'brilliant' officers, too.

:p

Many of the officers I came into contact with were unable to qualify with a M16, which required hitting 20+ out of 40 targert ranging from 25-300 meters.

Thats 50% and they couldent pull it off.

I would not put them in a Swordfish.

RedDevil, I would not pin them so precisley into our rank systems.  I'm actually working on a post about this, but it seems to me that all fire caste members "start at the bottom" and work up, so there is no hard line between a NCO and commissioned Officer ranks.  One could start as a private and retire as a general without having to go through a Tau OCS or taking a field comission.  Rather than be Officers, I see Etherials (SP) as respected advisors.  On pg 74 of IA3 its clear that its Shas'o R'myr, a Firecaste, who makes the final decision on how to conduct the defense of Taros.


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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:43 pm 
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I am REALLY looking forward to that Codex, and I need to get my hands on a IA3:Taros book!

There was only one Ethereal on Toras was there?  They are starting to smell more and more like Eldar Farseers to me (the conspiracy theories thicken...).






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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:47 pm 
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OK guys... read all the stuff back and fourth on this.

I think we should use both perspectives here and come to a consensus.

There's no question that Tau are known for giving the commanders extra gear... look at the hardwired and hard points given to a shas'o vs. a shas'vre vs. shas'ui.

However, there's also no question that the Tau follow principles that benefit the greater good - not the leader gets it all. Big guns are always left for their role - look at the crisis suit vs. the broadside. Both are battlesuits, but the crisis may have some additional gear - even more additional gear when we get into Taros, but still - the commander never leads with the biggest guns. Those are left on the broadsides. Commanders prefer to tweak crisis suits at best. Even the new special character Ethereal mounts a hopped up crisis suit. Broadsides again are left to do the mainstay support task.

So.

When considering the advent of a tank commander in E:A, I would see the command role of the tank commander doing jsut that. Give me the extra gear so I can tactically and strategically make use of it with my expertise and commanding prowess (Command Array) but leave the big gun crews to do what they do best. Kill the big threats at my command.

In army construct, it avoids anyone having to convert a model to have a new weapons outfit just to take a leader upgrade to their cadre.

In game play, this also avoids putting all of our eggs in one basket (command array on the swordfish).

In flexability of development, it allows us to use Command Array where needed - and not only on hammerhead formations with Swordfish. Not all players want to use a hammerhead formation for major anti-tank roles (see all ion-cannons)... we may want to offer Command Array to a Firewarrior cadre and mount it on a devilfish.

I think this is the wise and safe call. Its a minimal impact to a working list, and affords us eas of addition and removal if deemed problematic.

PS - I have a military backround in the US navy, nuclear power.

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:02 pm 
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Oh, lord, a nuke.  I deal with you guys enough at work, and now I need to deal with another one, here?!?


:p   (YN2/SS, here, BTW)

Tactica, my thought was that this would be a Hammerhead upgrade only.  It gives Leader and Co-ordinated Fire to an AV formation that would otherwise have to take an INF stand.  If I want leader and co-fire in a unit with Devilfish, I'll take the Shas'el unit that I've been pushing for.  The support detachments, like Stingrays and Broadsides, are just going to be SOL, and take a Shas'el if they want a leader (bad place for them, IMO.)

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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:12 pm 
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Its not so much extra gear, but more that there are two strands of Shas'os - either you move into the tactical planning side of things, or you stay in the field as a test pilot going off. Admittedly there is some blurring between (R'myr is more the former but does have an experimental suit when he goes into the field) but seems fairly sensible.
Makes sense that some of the officiers (vre and above - who get access to special test equipment in the next codex) will also test things outside of battlesuits.


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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:24 pm 
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Quote (HecklerMD @ 08 Dec. 2005 (21:42))
Many of the officers I came into contact with were unable to qualify with a M16, which required hitting 20+ out of 40 targert ranging from 25-300 meters.

Thats 50% and they couldent pull it off.

I would not put them in a Swordfish.

As I understand it from my father (who was a senior NCO in the British army) one of the defining characteristics of an officer is their inability to read maps.

Back OT:  If the upgrade is made available to an AMHC and states that it can be applied to one vehicle in the cadre then there is nothing stopping people applying it to either a HH or a SF as they choose.  Or a Skyray for that matter.

Orde

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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:36 pm 
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Quote (Tastyfish @ 08 Dec. 2005 (22:12))

Makes sense that some of the officiers (vre and above - who get access to special test equipment in the next codex) will also test things outside of battlesuits.

...and sensible at the 40K scale perhaps when you are talking about the occasional and rare test equipment or possibly weapon even...

However, I think we design to the rule and not the exception at the E:A scale.

The rule in E:A would not seem to put comanders in heavy weapon tanks as aforementioned.

For special scenerio games and what not, I'm right there with you and would encourge it. For tourny list - every formation would not be lead by a commander in uber cool tank.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:40 pm 
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As I understand it from my father (who was a senior NCO in the British army) one of the defining characteristics of an officer is their inability to read maps.


GOLDEN!

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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:26 am 
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Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 08 Dec. 2005 (22:24))
Back OT: ?If the upgrade is made available to an AMHC and states that it can be applied to one vehicle in the cadre then there is nothing stopping people applying it to either a HH or a SF as they choose. ?Or a Skyray for that matter.

Orde

Regardless of which formations its afforded too... I think we could use the language as found in the chaos codex for their character as found under their "Using the Black Legion Army"...

Tau Technology

Command Array
Some fluff - probably leveraging the previously posted research on radio value to Tanks (good research whoever posted that... Steele I think)

The Command Array upgrade may only be applied to one of the Core units of a Tau formation. A Core unit is any unit found in the formation prior to any upgrades being applied to the formation. For example, a Command Array upgrade for a Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre could only be added to Hamerhead Gunship with Railgun or Ioncannon. It could not be added to any units, Swordfish or Skyray purchased as an Upgrade.

Tau Cadres
Formation Type ? ? ? Units: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Cost
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ,... Command Array ? ?

Tau Upgrades
Upgrade Type ? ? ? Units ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Cost
Command Array ? ? Command Array ? ? ? +25 points


Note: I used AMHC (Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre) but we could add Command Array to whatever this way.

That's what I'm thinking anyway gents,

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:38 am 
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That's what I was thinking.

I still don't like the idea of anything but a Hammerhead getting this upgrade, but...

Colonel Sponsz:  ROFLMAO!

Now, how about the Shas'o/Shas'el stand?

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