Battlefleet Prometheus |
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Xisor
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Post subject: Battlefleet Prometheus  Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:24 pm |
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Well, it's Battlefleet Prometheus(I know, I know, it's Nocturne that's the Homeworld, but it's Prometheus where this fleet docks, Battlefleet Nocturne is a smaller IN Fleet with Salamanders having their 'hands in the pot'). Basically a 'retry' at the failure that was the Dominion Fleet List.
I also wanted to represent the product of a highly technically proficient Astartes Chapter and what you get when you combine that with the Adeptus Mechanicus. To me, that means 'more BBs', which is what I'm going for with this list.
It's also not long thought out, so...
Battlefleet Prometheus- A Salamanders Fleet List
Fleet Regent (As Master of the Fleet)
Battleships
The Salamanders are known for their ultimate prowess with technology, and maintaining repair standard on far older vessels. In this manner, Salamanders are known to maintain an extraordinary number of various configuration Barges.
0-3 Battlebarges (Standard) (1/750pts or part thereof)
0-2 Venerable Battle Barges (1/1000pts or part thereof)
0-1 N?bel?s Hammer  pts
Cruisers 0-10
Whilst most chapters maintain a sizeable force of strike cruisers well in excess of their amount of Battlebarges, the Salamanders curiously maintain an unusually small number of Strike Cruisers compared to other former Legions. It is known that they often employ and serve alongside starships of the Imperial Navy contingent of the system?s battle fleet.
0-6 Strike Cruisers- 145pts
0-4 Nocturnian Reserves- Varies
Nocturnian Reserves:
The Salamanders are known for the power, not the numbers they posses. Their good relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperial Navy in the Sector allow them to maintain a standing, if minor, relation with the Naval Ships in the system. It is quite common for a handful of Salamanders Battlebrothers to serve aboard Naval Vessels operating alongside the Promethean fleet, often as advisory roles, alongside the Commissariat and often even paired with the Adeptus Mechanicus Contingents onboard the starships.
A Promethean fleet may contain, to a maximum of four in total:
0-2 Lunar Class Cruisers 200pts
0-2 Tyrant Class Cruisers 205pts
0-1 Dictator Class Cruisers 230pts
These vessels gain the following benefits:
- +1 Ld (from standard leadership table)
- Double ?Repair? Damage Dice in end phase
- Gain a Special Torpedoes roll each battle
Escorts
A Promethean Fleet may contain any number of Gladius, Nova or Hunter class Escorts.
Gladius Class Frigate- 45pts
Nova Class Frigate- 50pts
Hunter Class Destroyer- 40pts
A Promethean Fleet may contain up to two squadrons of Battlefleet Nocturne Escorts plus one extra squadron per Nocturnian Reserve Capital Ship in the fleet.
Falchion Class Frigate- 35pts
Sword Class Frigate- 35pts
Firestorm Class Frigate- 40pts
N?bel?s Hammer pts
Type/Hits | Speed | Turns | Shields | Armour | Turrets
Battleship/12 | 20cm | 45 | 4 | 6+ | 4
Armament |Range/Speed | Firepower/STR | Fire Arc
Dorsal Weapons Battery | 45cm | 8 | FLR
Port Weapons Battery | 45cm | 6 | Left
StBd Weapons Battery | 45cm | 6 | Right
Prow Nova Cannon | 30-150cm | 1 | Front
Port Launch Bay | THawks 20cm | 2 | -
StBd Launch Bay | THawks 20cm | 2 | -
Port Lances | 45cm | 2 | Left
StBd Lances | 45cm | 2 | Right
So, it's not fully thought out, but I'm a fan of the Salamanders, and I think this is quite a nice list, inventive and something new for the Imperium, hopefully not groundbreaking though. I'm tempted to put the Nocturnian Reserves as 'Grand Cruisers Only', so as to keep up the feel of Marines not having/using Normal Cruisers. What do folks think of that as an alternative?
Xisor
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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Xisor
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Post subject: Battlefleet Prometheus Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:22 pm |
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
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Okay, double posting I know, but it is essentially a 'reply' to my post...
Anyway.
The last points I make about Grand Cruisers, I thought even more about this, I can't help but feel this is a very 'good' way to go with Marine fleets. Gives them a bit of added 'oomf', but in true SM BB-esque styles.
So, 'alternate' Nocturnian Reserves:
Max of 4
0-4 Avenger Class Grand Cruisers- 240pts
0-2 Vengence Class Grand Cruisers- 230pts
0-2 Exorcist Class Grand Cruisers- 240pts
[It's mentioned in fluff that Grand Cruisers form major parts of 'reserve' fleets and fleets for generally safe areas. I quite like the idea that the Nocturnian forces keep using them because they can afford to keep them in good condition for fighting with, and not just 'reserve' duties{remember, these are reserves to the Salamanders, not to the IN}]
'Upgrades'-
+1 Ld
+2 Damage Repair Dice
+1 Modifier in Boarding Actions
Escorts:
Firestorms, Falchions, Swords as normal, but only 2 Squadrons + 2/GC extra.
Otherwise, what I already said applies.
Now, for a bit of my 'fluff' reasoning:
Salamanders operate 'larger' than normal Companies, not by much, but certainly significantly. In this manner, I can see a 'rough' situation of the Battle Companies being on permanent 'embarkment' on one of the various Battle Barges, and where many chapters would deploy a SC, the Salamanders can afford to deploy a BB. It also allows them to play more 'intractably' to the fluff. There's no point hanging about trying to save everyone if your ship will be crippled in 4 hits  ! Well, there is, but I think being 'larger than life' is quite an interesting quirk for a Salamander Fleet, and I can't think of a chapter that are more suited to it.
They do have Strike Cruisers and their escorts however, which IMO would have very 'light' complement on them 'marine-wise', often used for the far more 'noble' duties of convoy protection often 'ignored' by other chapters. Roving patrols, expert/rapid but small scale anti-pirate moves and such too. When Salamanders go 'in force', then I imagine it'd be their BBs they move in, not their SCs...
Of most atypical note of all, it could be noted that since the Salamanders have such a huge 'cargo' capacity for such a small chapter(18 Companies worth of BB, 6 SCs and whatever space they have on the rest of the fleet) that they are not unknown to attempt to ferry thousands of refugees out of the most dangerous and terrible of combat zones in their own ships!
Again, it plays to the fluff IMO.
Then again, with such a preponderance of BBs, it's also likely and nowhere near uncommon, that Salamanders will often be requisitioned to perform Exterminatus more often, they do have more equipment...
Xisor
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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rowanalpha
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Post subject: Battlefleet Prometheus Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:24 pm |
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:31 am
Posts: 88
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This is a good shot at a variant fleet list, mainly because it doesn't just try to rewrite the army's 40K special rules for BFG.
The repair bonus on the reserve ships captures the Salamander's flavor well, and I think you should add it to the regular SM ships also.
I only have a couple of concerns with this list, mostly the details:
Battleships
The Salamanders are known for their ultimate prowess with technology, and maintaining repair standard on far older vessels. In this manner, Salamanders are known to maintain an extraordinary number of various configuration Barges.
0-3 Battlebarges (Standard) (1/750pts or part thereof)
0-2 Venerable Battle Barges (1/1000pts or part thereof)
0-1 N?bel?s Hammer pts
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A simpler execution of this might simply to say:
Battlebarges
A Salamanders fleet may have 1 battlebarge of every full 500 points the fleet is worth. You may not have more Venerable Battle Barges than standard Battle Barges
0-3 Battlebarge
0-3 Venerable Battle Barge
(inc N'bel's Hammer)
Nocturnian Reserves |
I'd suggest taking the Dictator out in favor of a Gothic. I say this for two reasons: 1. It gives the SM fleet access to bombers, when the fleet's ordnance should be focused on boarding, and 2. This would be the place to give access to a limited number of lances. Point two also leads to my final observation
N?bel?s Hammer
pts
Type/Hits | Speed | Turns | Shields | Armour | Turrets
Battleship/12 | 20cm | 45 | 4 | 6+ | 4
Armament |Range/Speed | Firepower/STR | Fire Arc
Dorsal Weapons Battery | 45cm | 8 | FLR
Port Weapons Battery | 45cm | 6 | Left
StBd Weapons Battery | 45cm | 6 | Right
Prow Nova Cannon | 30-150cm | 1 | Front
Port Launch Bay | THawks 20cm | 2 | -
StBd Launch Bay | THawks 20cm | 2 | -
Port Lances | 45cm | 2 | Left
StBd Lances | 45cm | 2 | Right
I would recommend dropping the lances (Since SM ships should not have lances), pushing the L&R batteries to 60 cm (to balance the loss of the lances), and replacing the dorsal battery with a bombarment cannon (same strength, 30 cm, to bring in line with normal BBs)
Once again, praise for this being a simple, effective rendition of a specific space marine fleet.
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Xisor
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Post subject: Battlefleet Prometheus Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:20 pm |
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
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Thanks for the praise on that ?
I think I'll revise the Damage Repair things to +2/Ship. For SCs this means 8, GCs 12, BBs 14. Only a small addition, but there you go.
The BB Suggestion/simplifcation is a good one, I might as well stick to that too.
The Dictator is only ship, so at most 4 Bombers. Simply that these ships come from the Nocturnian fleet, and aren't 'strictly' TH-Bombers(unlike the bloody anhiallator thunderhawk, ). Anyway, I personally now prefer the GC Suggestion I made, kind of reinforces the 'fleet' feel. I'm particularly fond of the ideas of an almost all Avenger/BB/Gladius force...that strikes me as a very potent 'Firefight' force, just like the Salamanders should be. Again about the GCs, I'd imagine the fact that they're 1) more pricey than normal cruisers and 2) Play differently to normal fleet cruisers(no armoured prow, no forward weapons, more shields/hits) they should complement a Marine Force oriented the way I suggest, but they wouldn't cover it's weaknesses(which is a good thing).
One of the things I find with this approach to the fleet is that the fleet format itself, IMO, plays to the fluff of the Salamanders, not the special rules or tweaks. IMO most variations for Marine fleets should come from orginisational changes: ie what fleets can actually be made of.
In this respect, if need be, I'd be happy to lose the special rules, but feel for now, they're characterful.
EDIT: Regarding the N'Bel's Hammer, I'd say keep the lances, but I understand why they wouldn't be 'liked'. I've had a couple of thoughts about it:
1- It's a pre-heresy era ship, even sufficiently pre-great crusade.
2- There's not many lances, and they're not long ranged, so we've no SO problems.
3- The 'look' I'm thinking of for this ship is Vengence + Battlebarge, a small 'pod' of lances make sense for a pre-heresy flagship that'd look silly if it got caught out by someone.
4- Salamanders have good relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus, and I imagine quite favourable relations with copious circles of the Inquisition. They're not a problematic(ref: Space Wolves, Iron Hands), erratic (ref: Black Templars, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels[to a degree]) and don't seem to be suspicious (ref: Dark Angels, Relictors), so, like the Ultramarines, I imagine they aren't bothered too much by operating 'slightly above' conventional Space Marine Methods.
That said, I'd be half tempted to put the Lances on top(S2, 60cm), and have the broadsides be BCs, WBs, LBs.
What I'm worried about is the Nova Cannon. I liked it because it's a very cool idea IMO to have something this potent on a VBB, it's one of a kind(like the SO was unfortunately...), and I'd be tempted to plop BCs or Torps on in its place...but then again, I still like the idea.
Xisor
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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Xisor
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Post subject: Battlefleet Prometheus Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:40 am |
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
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I feel uneasy about that imposed limit. They 'do' have access to them, and they would deploy them, it'd just be unusual for them to do so(and I don't really see the need to confine the player when they're likely to be doing so themselves anyway).
I think the limit on SCs as it stands is currently quite a striking thing(pun intended?). Well, I'm tempted to say 0-5 SCs and 0-5 VSVs/Reserves as 'cruisers'. Why? well, SCs are only really useful in decent sized squadrons, and this says to me, that you can only get 1-2 decent sized squadrons out of that.
Perhap, OTOH, you must have 1 BB/VSV/Reserve for every two more than one Strike Cruiser. So:
1-2 SCs = Optional 'Heavies'
3-4 SCs = 1 'Compulsary' Heavy
5 SCs = 2 Compulsary Heavies
Thats off the 0-5 SC limit. Slightly complex, but again it's only a fleet restriction, but doesn't deny the fact that Salamders still often do operate 'typically' as SM forces(so you can still field a roughly 'standard' small Space Marine force of 2 Strike Cruiser + some SM Escorts as normal, but when you try to go above that, they become far more noticably different, which is very much Salamandery IMO).
+2Repair Dice seems the easiest and most obvious way to go, not least because having a 'techmarine lord' is what the Salamanders are all not about. 'Each Marine is capable of maintaining his own armour and weapons', Self Reliance etc etc. Each Marine(and from that, each Promethean Cult memeber aboard the ship) is generally very technically proficient, meaning the techmarines themselves are able to do more interesting things than rush about the ship sealing up detonating conduits...Essentially, it's the Salamanders and Promethean Cult Members themselves that are self reliant and excellent with the maintainance/repair, which is entirely(unless I'm mistaken) unlike other known chapters.
Xisor
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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Xisor
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Post subject: Battlefleet Prometheus Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:14 pm |
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
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Perhaps I am overestimating the strengths of the Promethean Cult, but self reliance, interaction with friendly and reliably useful superhumans who specialise in knowing how to keep in good repair their technology and all the other things the Cult espouses, I don't see why the serfs and crews who are part of the Cult won't just be as good as other serfs, I'd expect them to be amongst the best crews in Galaxy...
Black Templar Crews, just because they're a space-going chapter, doesn't mean they're much better than everyone else. In fact, I'd wager the BT ships are not held in the best standards of everything.
It's not 'just' the Marines, it's the effect the marines have. The Salamanders are known for not being arrogant, jealous and selfish with their assets. With the Nocturnians, the Salamanders interact often and well, they act as leaders and mentors, figureheads, heroes and inspirations. I wouldn't half doubt that the technical colleges on Nocturne aren't filled to the brim with practically minded mechanics and technicians.
Then, figure those who go through the trials to become a Salamander, all those dropouts, joining the serfs of the Salamanders. Put them through the technical training and 'cult' that the Salamanders go through, and you'll have the maintainence of a Salamander in all but sheer strength, toughness and longevity.
And if that's just the basics, imagine what they'd do when overseen with a proper techmarine!
They may not 'understand' the tech, but they certainly know how to keep it going!(As an example, in our Physics Lecture the other week, on doing rotational movement the lecturer pointed out why you need to get your wheels balanced on your cars, and said roughly: "So, your mechanic may know exactly how to fix the damn things, but unlike you lot, he's unlikely to have much knowledge as to why they need fixed in the first place").
Xisor
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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