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[Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes

 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:23 pm 
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After all the games I've played with 'Nids, I just feel there's something a little off with spawning... it's just too easy to get back my heavy hitters and I can ignore "lesser" Brood creatures if I've got bigger ones in the Casualty Box. ?Here's my proposal to remedy that, and tweaked Brood point values to work with it:

Spawning:

? One of the most terrifying things about fighting a Tyranid army is that there seems to be no end to the number of creatures it consists of. Even if an attack is stopped, more Tyranids will soon appear to renew it. Some of these creatures will be broods that have gone to ground earlier in the battle, but have now been incorporated back into the Hive Mind, while others will be reinforcements sent by the Hive Mind to sustain the attack. To represent this, Tyranid formations may spawn instead of regrouping. Spawning is part of an action taken by a synapse formation so all broods spawned become part of that synapse creature's formation.

? Spawning allows the Tyranid player to return to play brood units that have been killed, gone to ground or that were held back at the start of the game. Note that spawning only allows you to re-use units that have been held back or removed from play; you may not create new units! Also note that only common and uncommon brood units may be spawned, not independent or synapse creatures (which are too rare to be produced in this manner). The Tyranid player rolls a number of D6 to determine the value of brood units that may be returned to play. ?The base is a single D6 per spawning attempt; plus an extra D6 if there are no enemy units within 30cms of any units from a formation taking a Marshal action. The formation may also receive bonuses if led by a Dominatrix or if Mycetic Spore Clouds are used to increase the number of brood units that can be produced (see the Dominatrix and Mycetic Spore Cloud datasheets).

? Each pip on the dice allows 15 points worth of brood units to return to play; the points generated can be used to spawn multiple units or added together to bring back larger Brood creatures. ?For example, a Hive Tyrant far from the enemy would roll 2D6; getting a result of "7" would spawn back 105 points worth of brood creatures, such as 3 Gargoyles and a Carnifex, or any other combination of that value, from the Casualty Box. ?Any points not spent during the action are discarded. All spawned brood units must be placed within 5cms of a synapse creature from the formation taking the spawn action. Spawned brood units may not set up in the zone of a control of an enemy unit or in impassable terrain.

Adjusted Brood Point Values

Common Broods
Termagant - 15 points each
Hormagaunt - 15 points each
Gargoyle - 20 points each
Ravener - 30 points each

Uncommon Broods
Biovore - 30 points each
Carnifex - 45 points each
Exocrine - 60 points each
Haruspex - 45 points each
Hierodule - 120 points each
Zoanthrope - 45 points each

I lowered the points values for the Uncommon broods because you're now less likely to get them back into play, so they aren't worth as much (as well, we've tweaked them quite a bit lately without any points adjustment).

Obviously the only fiddly bit is the Gargoyles, but they're worth a little more than 'Gaunts, but not as much as Raveners, so 20 is what it almost has to be! ?And rolling a "3" will get you 2 back, so that seems reasonable.

So, what are the Hive Mind's thoughts?

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:33 pm 
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I like it, I would though wouldn't I.

Something similiar I've been thinking about is the base spawning value.  Basically it doesn't feel right that a freshly sprouted lesser synpase node can spawn as much as three warriors (or a single warrior).

Thus I have come up with this base value list

Unit           base value spawning
Dominatrix       2D6
Tyrant             D6
GSN                D6
Vituraptor        D6
Harridan          D6
Warrior            D3
LSN                  -

Basically the same as it is now except Dominatrixi have 2D6 basic rather than 1D6 + 1D6 for being a brood mother

LSNs can't generate broods unless they are more than 30cm away from the enemy or you use mycetic spores

warriors spawn less now, but since there are three of them you generate more overall, until enemy fire starts to chip away at the numbers.

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:59 pm 
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Quote (ragnarok @ 28 Nov. 2005 (17:33))
Something similiar I've been thinking about is the base spawning value. ?Basically it doesn't feel right that a freshly sprouted lesser synpase node can spawn as much as three warriors (or a single warrior).

Thus I have come up with this base value list

This is a fantastic idea! ?It can go in the creature's data sheet as "Spawning (D6)" or whatever is necessary.  I do think the LSN should at least get D3... just cuz it's small doesn't mean it hasn't been cooking under the ground!  *laugh*

I like it, I really really like it!





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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Quote (Hena @ 28 Nov. 2005 (18:13))
The main thing with this is that it gets more complicated to calculate what you get back. I think that epic should not have too fiddly with this. So while it may be more realistic... I'm not sure.

Btw. Warriors shouldn't be degraded to d3 instead of d6. Since they are our only infantry synapse.

With the adjusted point values I've given above, everything but the Gargoyles are divisible by 15 points.  So, with a little practice it should be quite ease to work out what is worth what.

In addition or instead, creatures could be given a "respawn value" to give more variablity than the 1 or 2 they have now.

With the Warriors though, you've got *three* of them, so it's actuall 3D3, not just 1D3!

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:36 pm 
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I agree that the LSN should get D3.  Keeps it viable, but less useful in the turn three conver the board with LSNs and spawn tactic.

But what do you think about dropping the Harridans spawning to D3?

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:45 pm 
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Quote (ragnarok @ 28 Nov. 2005 (20:36))
But what do you think about dropping the Harridans spawning to D3?

Hmmm... honestly, I don't like it.  Do you see Harridans getting taken much as it is?  To make them an even worse choice isn't the way to go I feel.  Heck, the Vituporaptor should probably have a "good" spawning number!

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:16 am 
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Quote (Chroma @ 28 Nov. 2005 (19:16))
Quote (Hena @ 28 Nov. 2005 (18:13))
The main thing with this is that it gets more complicated to calculate what you get back. I think that epic should not have too fiddly with this. So while it may be more realistic... I'm not sure.

Btw. Warriors shouldn't be degraded to d3 instead of d6. Since they are our only infantry synapse.

With the adjusted point values I've given above, everything but the Gargoyles are divisible by 15 points. ?So, with a little practice it should be quite ease to work out what is worth what.

In addition or instead, creatures could be given a "respawn value" to give more variablity than the 1 or 2 they have now.

With the Warriors though, you've got *three* of them, so it's actuall 3D3, not just 1D3!

Please , rewrite or add into the Spawning Rule: that you may spawn 1Dx per Synapse Creature in the Formation. At least for me , I read it like you may spawn once per Formation in which a synapse is present.

Steele

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:38 am 
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Quote (Chroma @ 28 Nov. 2005 (22:45))
Quote (ragnarok @ 28 Nov. 2005 (20:36))
But what do you think about dropping the Harridans spawning to D3?

Hmmm... honestly, I don't like it. ?Do you see Harridans getting taken much as it is? ?To make them an even worse choice isn't the way to go I feel. ?Heck, the Vituporaptor should probably have a "good" spawning number!

Damn my minds doing that thinking think again  :(8: .  What about allowing harridans and Vituporaptor pawn as normal, expect that they may spawn two gargoyles for the price of one, representing them being gargoyle brood mothers.

Thus they can sail along happily spawning the odd carnifex or two (as they float 30 feet off the ground) or spawn, as the orks would put it, an 'uge number of gargoyles.

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:47 am 
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I think this type of rule is too complicated and over the top.

I think a much better idea is to make each 1 or 2 pips a reasonable choice, and I think we have have nearly achieved this.
We need to be thinking like the chaos daemon rules I believe - each daemon costs the same to spawn but they are equal in different ways.

At the moment the spawning choice works well for termigaunts and hormigaunts (do I want FF or CC?), and with LV class - also for the ravener (more power but also increased vulnerability). Gargoyles are the only one which is bit of a no-brainer at present in the common brood category.

For most uncommons the current system also works well - carnis, zoanthropes, exocrine, haruspex, hierodules are all 'equal value' depending on the situation. Biovores are the only choice that is not generally as attractive as other options.

In other words I don't think that only two 'less attractive' spawning choices are enough reason to create a new and complicated spawning system. Rather lets just tweak the stats of what we have.

The other problem is that the uncommons may be worth more than 2 commons. So far I have not found this to be the case. However, if the stats of the uncommons keep getting boosted (as suggested in another thread) then it may well be. I think we need to pay close attention to the objective of 'a horde of tooth and claw' and avoid the list turning into smaller amounts of elite bugs (as has definitely been the case in some past list versions).





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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:59 am 
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I would also not bother with different spawning capabilities for various synapse - I don't think the extra complication adds much to the list.

One question that has come up though - enemy within 30cm, does this include enemy aircraft? I presume so but I am unsure whether it should?

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:29 am 
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Quote (Hena @ 30 Nov. 2005 (05:54))
Umm.. With current list and spawning if I have gargoyles, there is no point in taking termagants. Same FF, gargoyle has better move and CC and skimmer.

Yes - that is what I mean't when I said it is a no-brainer choice (should have made it clearer, sorry). There is currently no down-side to choosing the gargoyle over a termagant when spawning.  

However, I don't regard it as a big problem - in most situations the termagant will be just as useful with its equal FF, plus it has a cheaper initial purchase cost.  In other words yes it is a minor problem, but not enough of a problem to justify a complicated new spawning system IMO.

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:24 am 
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KISS principle  :D

Although I like the idea of differing Synapse Spawning ability I feel in large games keeping track of this and calculating point values for re-spawning would be too much and slow the game down. Better to throw 1 or 2 die and pick the creatures out of the casualty box.

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 Post subject: [Rules] Proposed spawning rules changes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:33 pm 
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How about this simple change: Common Brood cost 1 pip and Uncommon Brood cost 3 pips.  Most Uncommon are about 3 times the point value anyway, so this keeps it simple.

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