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[Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP

 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:16 am 
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I don't want to be stepping on anyone's claws, but here's a .pdf I've put together utilizing some of my changes and recent play experience. ?

Please take a look and tell me what you think! ?(I'm already worried I've made the Raveners too strong, but let me know if anything else jumps out at you.)  I editted out a lot of the modelling information and such, but I did leave in MaksimSmelchak dedications and thanks.  Sorry if this is inappropriate, I'm just quite eager to get things moving with the 'Nids!

The .pdf can be found here in my webspace:

http://home.cogeco.ca/~kpetker/


Thanks!





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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:57 am 
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Well done Chroma! - you seem to have summed up the wishes of the majority of the playtesting community I think.

Although there is undoubtably much that will change before the final version, I support the direction and feeling of the vast majority of the changes you have implemented.

In fact I would even go so far as to say that this document (or something very close to it!) would be entirely appropriate for the next version of the list for playtesting IMHO.

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:19 am 
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Further feedback...

Yes to all of :

LSN,
GSN,  
termigaunt,
hormigaunt,
gargoyle (maybe change to 5+CC and ditch the extra attack but I can live with it),
ravener (for the moment),
tyranid warriors,
biovore,
dactocrine,
lycoexocrine,
haruspex,
hierodule,
zoanthrope
venomfex

Tyrant ? too overpowered for points. I?d replace monstrous claws to ?bone sword? as that is what the current epic model, current 40k tyrant, and probably any redesigned SG epic tyrant will be armed with . Classify it as ?base contact,  macro weapon, extra attack +1?.
Rename scything talons as ?claws? and ditch the extra attack.
Also I am not sure it needs invulnerable save on top of reinforced armour (mainly for balance reasons).

Screamer Killer ? again too overpowered, I?d ditch the extra bioplasma attack and just call it claws (and no extra attack), and give monstrous claws ?extra attacks +1? instead of ?+2?. Compare the points, attacks, and abilities of these to other macro weapon units in both epic and 40k. Eg. 5 terminators = 10 attacks in 40k, two attacks in epic. Screamer Killers are 5 attacks in 40k, so I don't see that more than two attacks are justified in epic. Also for play balance reasons.

Lictors ? better, but I?d like to ditch commander, this is potentially a very powerful ability and I don?t? think it is justified, though I do understand what you are tyring to represent with it. Also I?d ditch the extra attack and just give it 2+ CC (like V3 lictors), they shouldn?t be better than genestealers with their close combat ability I think.

Genestealers ? same as lictor, I?d change it to one attack 2+, same as V3.

Regeneration? ? Please stick in one of the regeneration rules discussed in the bio-titan discussion thread in this forum ;)


Other creatures I have not mentioned: All the bio-titan type creatures should have at most 4+ armour, 3+ RA is way too good and just unworkable I think. Possibly 5+ RA for the flyers... Apart from this I don?t feel I yet have enough experience with these critters to comment further.

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:49 am 
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Really like the look of it  :D .  On the topic of less attacks I agee with the gargoyle losing bioplasma (at the moment a gargoyle brood can put out more attacks than a brood of hormagaunts which is wrong).  I would also like to see them replace jumppack with skimmer, since they dont have any legs to land with.

Personnaly my two major gripes are the shear number of +1 FF & CC attacks the list has.  A stand of assault marines are nearly as choppy as a stand of warriors but don't get +1 attacks.  Similarly a stand of deversators can out shoot the warriors in a close range fire fight, but the warriors gain +1FF.

The other thing is the continuation of the evil  :devil:  criticals we suffer from.  A single lucky AT hit can kill me beloved hierophant in the opening shot of the game (I know it isn't your fault it has always been there).  I'm willing to live with it if
There is a decent points break for such an eventuality (which I think there is)
or
Bio-WEs gain cataylst.  ie if they die they can still be activated that turn.

Now onto the carnifexi.  I'm not sure about these guys.  Their background states that they can flip MBTs so 2 MW CC attacks seem reasonable, until you realise that makes them capable of carving though entire infantry squads with even a clawed carnifex finds hard to do.

Ideas
Reduce their combat ability and price, this way we can get back to the hoard feel of the list (oh why can't I find 34 stands of termagaunts?)

Replace MW with Lance.  Thus they will cut though RA but suffer when deaqling with normal troops (I don't like this one)

Finally, replace both MW attacks with a single TK(1) attack.  thus they *will* kill anything tyey fight, but if ganged up on they can die (ie takingon to many termies).

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:55 pm 
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Hi Chroma,

Looks good!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:47 pm 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 15 Nov. 2005 (16:55))
Hi Chroma,

Looks good!

Thanks!  That means a lot coming from the Hive Father!

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:54 pm 
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Allow me to retort...

Dominatrix

I added the Invulnerable Save for the off chance of preventing a first turn TK kill, as in the new Tyranid Codex synapse creatures can't get "Instant Kill"ed, and this list was originally started before the new codex was out. ?Maybe if regeneration comes together, then IS is unnecessary.

Hive Tyrant

Yeah, I can agree with what you're all saying. ?I added Reinforced Armour to the Invulnerable Save, because these guys are supposed to be hideously tough to destroy. ?Which is preferable: RA or IS?

I can see the weapon load out being:
Lash Whip and Bonesword (Base Contact) Assault weapons Macro-weapon, Extra attacks (+2)
Venom Cannon 30cm AP5+/AT6+

And that's it. ?It's still two CC attacks at 2+, comparable to a Daemon Prince.

Synapse Node, Lesser

5+RA sounds good, they are "young". *laugh* ?I put the "spore clouds" in there just to give them a FF weapon, do you think they should only have CC and no FF ability?

Synapse Node, Greater

I think CC/FF6+ is fine, as a 3DC war engine, they do get 3 attacks as it is.

As to leaving 0cm synapse behind, with Scout on the Lesser and the 15cm coherency of a 3DC war engine on the Greater you'll have to be working to leave units out of coherency with them, so I think the normal rules should probably apply. ?It's usually pretty easy to leave a few scattered units back to maintain the link.

Tyranid Warriors

Warriors are very shooty and very choppy, the difference between them and Devastators is that all the 'Nid "heavy" weapons are assault weapons, so they can move and shoot with them! ?And to Assault Marines? well, everyone knows they got the shaft! ?*laugh*

What about the stats I posted for 200 points instead of 150 points?

As to "sticking together", the formation is the synapse creatures *and* the brood creatures, especially in the first turn, so I don't really think they need to stay within 5cm of each other, but, you're right, clarification would be good.

Bio-Titans and Bio-War Engines

Maxing out at RA4+ is probably the best way to go.

I think regeneration is a cool concept and will need a bit of work, but the threat of having a bio-titan killed in one shot is more than a balance for some healing!

Only the bio-titans and Synapse war engines should get it

Genestealers

I think these guys need to be absolutely lethal in close combat, and I don't think a single attack, even a 2+, reflects that. ?Honestly, I've had no luck at all with Genestealers, either they get attacked by skimmers, or enough enemy survive to pummel them out of existence.

2xCC3+ would be an improvement I could see.

Lictors

I still like the commander ability for these guys, it's what they *do*: leading the swarm to the prey? though they are usually distracted by butterflies and such (I almost always roll "1" when trying to use them for combined assaults). ?If they lose their MW attack, which they don't really deserve, and just have 2xCC4+ is that unbalanced? ?And they still die like flies to FF attacks.

The trick is not making the unit too cheap that it becomes a massive activation advantage or too expensive that it's never taken.

Termagants (Oh why couldn't they have renamed them Terma*gaunts* in the new Codex?!)

One of the things that Termagants got in the new Codex is "living ammunition" for their fleshborers, which means (for those who don't know 40k, please bear with me) that they get to roll two chances to wound with every hit of their S4 weapon? that's pretty good! ?And I think it deserves FF5+ and the 15 point cost. ?They can still screen, can do stuff (non-useful units wouldn't be produced by the 'Nids anymore!), and are still spawnable in plenty. ?As well, it allows a filling of the Common Brood requirement with just a little easier on the pocketbook.

At 10 points a pop, these guys are just too cheap, even with only CC/FF6+? they can make a swarm almost completely unstoppable for an opponent and I think that's one of the problems with the list. ?I know the army is supposed to be a massive ravening horde, but getting overwhelmed isn't always that fun? *laugh*

In regard to the "tooth-n-claw" horde, I'd like to make an aside: ?I think choosing the "Subdual" phase as the armylist focus was a mistake (Please don't strike me down, Jervis!) if that style of army is the true intent. ?Phase III (Attack) would seem to be much more suited to that kind of army, as the Tyranids haven't had the time or resources to create the more specialized bug. ?In reading the descriptions of the Phases, "Subdual" definitely lends itself to being more shooty and specialized.

If we really want to move it to more "horde" style, I'd have to make the, horrific, suggestion of 33% mandatory Common Broods? it would certainly fit the bill! ?But I think it might just be too extreme.

Gargoyles

First off, I think they should be skimmers as well, I don't see them landing much, but I think that was debated and, essentially, decided before I took a look at the list.

Second, I *like* bio-plasma having a game effect! ?It's a weird, weird thing, to say the least, and I like it being more than just filler. ?Statistically, 2xCC6+ and 1xCC5+ produce essentially the same results, and isn't it more satisfying to drop a horde of dice even if you're just picking up sixes? ?*laugh*

I think the should keep FF5+ as they are armed with the same deadly fleshborers as Termagants.

Hormagaunts

Hmmm? even with a 20cm move, they can still be garrisoned with Nodes, with Warriors right nearby, which is what I usually do with them. ?What about 15cm move, infiltrator, and the Raveners with 20cm move, no infiltrator?

Which brings us to the:

Raveners

What to do with them? ?*sigh* ?I agree the extra attack is too much for them, but, well, they're supposed to be *ravening* beasts! ?I could see a case to be made that they should be an Uncommon brood, but that would make filling the Common brood requirement next to impossible. ?So, what to do to make them a valid choice but not over-powering?

I think they need Infiltrator to fully represent them? they are fast attack beasts that are able to tunnel up right into the midst of the enemy! ?And with 3 Attacks (in 40k!), they can put out a lot of firepower as well. ?If we drop the +1EA, have them at 5+ armour with 15cm Infiltrator are they worth 30 points? ?More? ?Less? ?Would you take 2 Hormagaunts instead of them if you had the models?

I really think the Raveners need to be revisited? and just reading their entry in the new Codex, this line jumped out at me: "Vulnerable to heavy weapons fire"? is making them LVs the answer? ?(I'm a big fan of having "middle units" as LVs, I don't see it as a bug, but a feature!)

Carnifex - Screamer-Killer

As well all know, there are a bunch of different Carnifex sub-species out there now. ?The MBT ripping one is *not* the Screamer-Killer or Venomspitter we've got in the list, but the "Shovel-Tusker", essentially a living battering ram.

As to the Screamer-Killer, again, I *like* bio-plasma! ?*laugh* The S-K actually should have no FF value, it's the original Carnifex baby, and it don't shoot! ?*laugh* Dropping it down to +1CCMW attack and keeping the +1CCEA, would that balance out? ?Is it still scary? ?

Carnifex - Venomspitter

I agree that is should be CC5+ and FF4+ and will change it so in my next draft.

Exocrine - Lyco

The Dactos almost always seem like the better choice. ?Perhaps making the Bio-Cannon 2xMW5+, Ignore Cover would make the Lyco more attractive for 75 points.

Zoanthrope

I think there was talk of adding Invulnerable Save to them but I forgot to put it in. ?Is it a valid addition?

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:29 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 15 Nov. 2005 (17:47))
Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 15 Nov. 2005 (16:55))

Hi Chroma,
Looks good!


Thanks! That means a lot coming from the Hive Father!

NEWS: The "Hive Father" mourns...

Hi Chroma and Gang,

I've never thought of myself as the "Hive Father" although the title has a certain ring to it...  :D

I also don't want to be overly pessimistic, but I'm not sure if the E-A 'Nids project has "official" support anymore. The SG forums are practically dead... the shake-up of many forum changes and indefinite press releases have killed the game in my area and... I can't get any response from the Specialist Games (SG) staff as the E-A 'Nid project head. That doesn't bode well in my book.

I would like to finish the E-A 'Nid project, but I don't want to put a lot of time in on it until I know what's going on. I feel emphatically out of the "proverbial" loop. Even if E-A goes under, I want to finish the E-A 'Nid project as a fan-based creation, but until I have some idea of what's going on, I'd prefer to let the project lay low.

I have absolutely zero problem with you guys wanting to push it forward and will even encourage and support you.

I hope you can understand why I don't want to pour my heart into a project with such shakey support.

I've been stung too many times by Epic rejections. I love the game, but can't stand what the company is doing with it... or maybe not doing with it... as it is. This one is starting to sting to because I've put a lot of time and effort into E-A to see it wither away on the vine. It's almost like seeing a child become seriously ill. It breaks your heart.

Until I have some idea of what's going on (...and I have made polite inquiries of Specialist Games.), I'll be putting most of my effort into the new game I've designed, which I hope to publish early next year (...by April 2006). If anyone is interested, my game is called "Planetfall" (PF) and is, in many ways, a huge improvement over E-A. I've added a number of innovative game mechanics that I offered to E-A during playtesting, but were either not read or rejected and that's OK by me.

Here's a link to the PF support group:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pla ... -TGUSFMWE/

I sure hope that SG will be able to survive all the turmoil going on. I think the world of Jervis and would hate to see him get his funding cut. I wish the entire SG staff every kind of happiness and prosperity.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:36 pm 
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A few disagreements

Raveners shouldn't be LV.  Since a swarm formation is in synapse range no creature can suffer instant death.  Thus a lascannon volley wont cut down the brood.

Possably give them teleport?  It would be hard with them being brood creatures.  Maybe allow them to teleport in first time they are used.

Carnies
I agree the screamer killer isn't as good as a shovel tusker (which I have, look at my avatar) at taking apart tanks but they still have 6 S10 attacks on the charge!  Also the original bioplasma was a ranged weapon.

Agreement
The Lyco-exocrine does need something, 2X shots or extra range might do it.

The lictor should lose its MW attack, plus one CC should be enough

Termagaunts (I dont' care how it it spelt this is my way and I'm keeping to it) should go up to 5+FF.  However if we keep it at 6+ and 10pts we could claim that we arn't able to playtest it properly and need the sprues put back into production to help with the testing (well I can dream can't I  :D ).

Anything I haven't formed an opinion on yet, but don't worry.  I will.

Ps.  Yeah the overmind is back

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:00 pm 
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Okay, I put up another WIP list (can you tell I had the day off?).  

I've incorporated some of the changes suggested, cleaned up some of the special rules stuff, and altered the layout a little.

I'd really like people to give this a whirl on the battlefield if they could.  I've got a game scheduled against Marines tomorrow evening at 2700 points and I'm quite looking forward to it!

Let me know what you think!

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 Post subject: [Lists] Proposed Tyranid Armylist WIP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:44 pm 
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Better ?:8):

I'd suggest classing the tyranid warriors as LV, ?if raveners, lictors and zoanthropes are also going to be classed this way. Yes this means they may be more vulnerable in certain situations - but they can still be screened by a combination of units (and it just makes more sense to class warriors the same as their other medium sized bio-constructs). ?A little more vulnerability with synapse might improve the balance of this army anyway.

I am still worried that the Lictor is overpowered, in 40k they die to a normal infantry squad and have to get lucky to take out vehicles. In epic they seem too much of a sure thing with two first strike 3+ attacks each. That's why I advised going with the version 3 stats.

Nonetheless I will playtest 5.6 list as is (with warriors as LV - do you want to change this?).





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