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Gandalf the Grey's Gaming blog
Dwarf Supreme	Post subject: Gandalf the Grey's Gaming blog Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:25 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm Posts: 11149 Location: Canton, CT, USA	Quote (primarch @ 09 Nov. 2005 (00:29)) Hi! To this day the original warhound model is still the best. All others are cheap imitations.... Primarch I agree 100%.   _________________ "I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart
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primarch	Post subject: Gandalf the Grey's Gaming blog Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:09 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 08 Nov. 2005 (22:48)) I loved the size of the original, and the shape and all, I just really preferref they wouldn't have given it a wolf's head. I know it seems appropriate that they did, but I still thought mass producing a million wolf headed warhounds was rather silly. Even in the 40k universe. I am covering Starship Troopers next. Look for a post tomorrow. I hate the game. You'll love the post. Hi! I'm looking forward to your take on SST. Been looking at it for a while, but I'm not convinced. I'd like you to convince me to STAY unconvinced....   Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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primarch	Post subject: Gandalf the Grey's Gaming blog Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:10 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 09 Nov. 2005 (09:24)) Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 09 Nov. 2005 (06:55)) Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 08 Nov. 2005 (14:24)) Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 08 Nov. 2005 (10:01)) Quote (Tas @ 08 Nov. 2005 (07:16)) Cant tell- cant see It's a Mk1 warhound with the head of a Reaver (not the skull head but the other) and a Reaver multiple rocket launcher attached to the carapace. Not to my taste either. I'm not sure if this is what you mean, Mojarn, but to me it looks like a Reaver carapace and head, with Warhound legs, and where the "shoulder" armor plates would normally be, there are weapons. Argh! You are right. It IS a Reaver carapace. That's what you get for not looking closely enough. ? ? I can understand why you didn't look at it more carefully; you were worried that this abomination would cause permanent vision damage. ? ? Hi! HAHAHA! Good one. Luckily I used my microscope lens to view it avoiding the worst damage! Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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MaksimSmelchak	Post subject: Gandalf the Grey's Gaming blog Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:58 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA	Hi Gandalf, Tell me more about GROPOS, please. I'm interested in that one. I've put in some feelers to get a new GROPOS game going. I've seen some interest. My next game will be my "Planetfall" main game and a "Traveller" game module for it. Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Gandalf the Grey's Gaming blog Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:06 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Hi Gandalf, Gandalf: Starship Troopers by Mongoose Publishing. . . Well first of all let me just say how much I hated the movies, resented the fact that the director didn't even finish reading the original book he was making a movie on, and while I haven't seen the computer generated animation series (if that is what it is), seeing the stills in the rulebook makes me feel lucky I didn't sit through an episode. I wasn't a big fan of the Verhoeven movie either. It took out most of the deep thought that heinlein put into the original work... such as a criticism of the US education system, a criticism of democracy, sarcasm about fascism, and so much more. Verhoeven turned SST into a cartoon and a typical soulless Hollywood expression of mostly nothing... commercial culture at its worst. However, I imagine that if I hadn't read the book, it might stand OK on its own. Battlestar Galactica wasn't full of too much deep thought in the original series and I enjoyed that. the new series is much better. They seem to have followed the successful Star Wars formula of using a lot of myth to help move the story. Gandalf: Ironically, there was a Japanese Animation movie made that was based closely on the original book that I felt was much better than the crap we've seen from the US side of the pacific. In the books and Japanese movie, the Starship Troops wore powered suits that enabled them to make huge jumps and act independently from one another. It was still man vs hordes, but the Starship Troopers themselves fought quite a distance apart. It was never depicted as squad based foot infantry as in the movies.

That anime movie, but it was lacking in a number of areas as well.

The problem is that books are not a visual media and when you change a book into a visual media, you have to compete with the imaginations of the many folk who have read the folk.

With the increase of popularity of TV culture, movies may be able to replace books to a degree and stifle imagination in a huge way, but they'll always be a core of creative imaginative folk who have a more fertile imagination than can easily be put on film.

The most recent LOTR film was easily the best yet, but I still had huge reservations with how the director changed the story. I was not happy at all with the changes.

Gandalf: So Andy Chambers leaves Games Workshop and the gaming world panics, and Mongoose picking him up to help out with their flagship product really was the best thing they could do. I am really not crazy about Mongoose's other games although I gave somewhat high marks for Gangs of Mega City 1, and I guess Startship Troopers was going to determine whether or not I ever go back to visit their site.

I'm not surprised that Andy made the MI into the Sapce Marines of SST.

To be honest, SST doesn't seem like much more than a slightly more streamlined and improved version of 28mm 40k.

However, Dalton C, likes it and I respect his opinion.

Gandalf: How do I feel about Starship Troopers? I think the whole thing is kind of crappy.

I tend to agree, but I've only tried it out once in person. I've watched it every other time.

*** Have you played the SST game yet, Gandalf? ***

Gandalf: First of all, you'll read on several message boards that the game has a really good system and introduces some new mechanics not seen in other games, and to this I do agree.

*** What are the new mechanics that you've noted? ***

I've heard that to and browsed the rulebook, not yet finding them. Of course, I freely admit that I did this in a game shop while being distracted by a million other things.

Gandalf: However, the driving force behind a game is not the engine or Mechanics, it is the flavor of the game and the armies in it. Case in point: Epic A vs SM2/TL. Epic A is considered to have the best engine of any Epic system, but SM2/TL was hugely popular in it's day. Epic A has really never caught on except by the Epic Die-hards. Another example is 40k versus a game like Void 1.1. Void 1.1 arguably has one of the best skirmish/army systems out there, but 40k crushes it's competition, regardless of the cost to field an army. So the engine and mechanics can suck, but players will overlook that if they really like the setting and the armies that are in the game.

Background and story are important. However a good game engine does go beyond this. Look at all the conversions of popular game engines into different genres.

That's what I'm shooting for with my game. First I'm aiming for a good game engine and then I'll work on good stories.

Gandalf: Which brings us back to Starship Troopers. This really isn't Mongoose's fault, and I see they are really making an effort, but by sticking so closely to a retarded movie franchise and the cartoon, they've bottlenecked themselves into a theme that is not only lame, but really has very little chance of expanding.

I've heard this before. There's a very limited amount of room for expansion with the SST franchise. They'll have to write new material before long or they'll hit the limits of what the book introduced.

Gandalf: The Moble Infantry are a fun bunch to play. While I am not crazy about the models, the variety of weapons a MI player can choose from is pretty impressive. As a matter of fact, it is kind of time consuming coming up with a an armylist while trying to decide which weapons to go with. So I give the MI their props. Any MI player will have fun playing them.

Space Marines by another name... same writer...

Gandalf: So now we move on to the Arachnids. The Warriors included in the box set are a nice representation of what you see in the movies. With the variety of different limbs, you'll be able to make enough unique poses that no two of the 20 Warriors included in the box set will ever look exactly alike. The problem is that they are relatively big models, and really uninspiring to be painted up as they should be. With limbs stretched out, they are almost the size of a 40k landspeeder, which takes up a lot of table space.

I'm not too attracted to the models either.

I like the GZG 6mm ones much better. They're much easier to paint and store as well.

Scotia 6mm sci-fi troops make great power armor as well.

Gandalf: The interesting way forces are made up in the game are in Priority Levels, which basically translates into 1000, 2000, or 3000 point armies. The cool thing is that you can play a 1000 point army against a 3000 point army with each side have a different set of objectives to win. Obviously a 1000 point army isn't going to win in a straight up fight, so if they can meet certain objectives, they can still win. Very cool concept.

I like this ideas as well. It inspires scenario play, which is better than most games with a simple brawling match.

I designed a similar system for my new and upcoming game. ?

Gandalf: However with the Arachnids, your choices for fielding a 1000 point army are really limited. I believe a unit of 5 warriors is only 75 points. Blaster and Blister bugs aren't much more, and they are the only models you can field in a Priority 1 Level force if I remember correctly. Maybe Hopper Bugs too. You can add tunnels for around 50 points, but your army is really just a bunch of models who's only strategy is charging the enemy.

And to make 1,000 points of them, you need A LOT of models!

Horde armies have almost always been more expensive to build than quality armies... more models.

Gandalf: When you get into Priority Level 2 and 3, you choices are more interesting, but the models themselves aren't. The Tanker Bugs look horrible and are huge. The Brain Bugs were never seen outside their caves so to have them on a table is ridiculous.

Those big bug model kits are horrendously expensive too.

Gandalf: The worst thing about the Arachnids is that they are built up to be an Empire of sorts, but it is never really explained well how a race of Insects come up with the ability for space travel or what their purpose is. Even in the movie they just start chucking meteors at Earth for no reason. Then they invade Pluto. Great strategy. So even as you are building an army you have to be thinking this is a ridiculous concept. On top of that, you army is really made up of cheap masses of troops that are not inspiring.

The book discusses it a little, but they are alien, are they not?

They have different motivations and a different mindset as aliens... they're... well, different!

But, I understand your point. I feel the same way about Orkz in E-A. The original playtest lists were great and were taking Orkz in a new direction. By final draft, they were made back into a charging horde. They work OK in current E-A form, but they could have been so much more.

Gandalf: Then we move on to what could be an extra reason to get into the game, but it turns out to be another reason to avoid: The Skinnies. Horrible name, horrible concept. Ugly designs too. Another poorly thought out race that looks like something to be able to compete with the MI on a technological level, but the minis and army lists they have released this far just makes me laugh at only who have actually taken the time to buy the minis and paint up an army.

In the book, the Skinnies had more going for them. They ahd artillery and a variety of other goodies. The book ones have been made into funky aliens with goo weapons. Oh, well.

Gandalf: Meanwhile, Mongoose is releasing impressive Dropship models, Fighters, jump pack infantry, etc for the MI. It is MI Overkill against two poorly developed races.

I imagine a battle of MI vs MI could be really interesting, but it goes against everything the MI is about.

Great models, but the background is lacking as you mentioned.

Gandalf: The box set is kind of impressive considering the amount of plastic you get. There really aren't enough Arachnids considering the amount of MI you get. The paper fort that is included is really flimsy and it is disappointing that this couldn't have been made in cardboard. The other components are well made, and the rulebook wouldn't be so bad if it just included art versus screen captures from the movie and cartoon.

The SST RPG book has better art, but the $50.00 USD price tag is a little daunting.

I looked at the D20 Futures book yesterday and was surprised to see Star Frontiers background in it. WOTC owns a lot of licenses these days.

Gandalf: I really think Mongoose would have done a much better job at starting from scratch rather than following the existing franchise. They've proven to me that they are a gung-ho company who really want to develop their products. Unfortunately they just went in the wrong direction with Starship Troopers.

I like their B-5 starship game. My buddy, Chern, absolutely loves it. We'll be playing it later today.

My only reservation is that they released the game before it was fully playtested and my favorite two B-5 forces, the Vree and Shadows, keep getting their lists emasculated for "balance." It's no fun knowing that the force I've invested time in learning how to play may be completely changed... yet again... in a few months or so.

I wonder if Andy brought the pointless and often updates syndrome from GW to Mongoose as well.

Gandalf: The MI are pretty cool, but the Arachnids and Skinnies are lame. Mongoose is going nuts expanding the MI, but with the other armies being so undeveloped and poor cocepts anyway, I don't see any interest in this game beyond a year. There is so much competition out there right now I would be flabergasted to find a player putting money into this game over 40k, Confrontation, or even Warlord. I haven't even played Warmachine but I would recommend that game over this one any day.

I agree, but I'm also biased since I'm not a fan of 28mm games.

I'm a 6mm nut, and I've been turned onto 10mm and 15mm lately.

Gandalf: I am willing to bet that if any of you were to pick this up, you'll play it once or twice, say you liked the mechanics, and then never touch it again. The Arachnids lack character and building an army is going to be about as fun as watching paint dry, and the Skinnies are a joke.

I'd be willing to play again, but I wouldn't invest in it unless it was cheaper than the current sticker price.

Gandalf: It's a real shame, because I am giving Andy a lot of credit for doing the best he could with such a lame concept, but it pales in comparison to his previous work with Epic, 40k, Necromunda, and BFG. If you never play this game, you aren't missing anything.

It's good inspiration. I have most of the pieces, if not all of the ones I would need to play this in 6mm.

Gandalf: Of course, if you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, go for it. I paid around $50 for my box set and I feel like I paid too much. It retails for $75. You shouldn't pay anymore than $30, which will be quite easy to do on ebay in about 6 months.

I could go for itat a $30.00 price tag to have a copy of the rules.

I'd give or sell the minis to my friends who wanted them.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.