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Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Markconz

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:36 pm

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Quote (ragnarok @ 31 Oct. 2005 (20:21))

I (naturally) prefer my own version of regeneration. ?When you roll a D6 for each remaining DC rather than each point lost. ?Since it makes no sence to me why they should regenerate better when they are badly wounded. ?Hower Jaldons ruling is the closest to KISS.

Q. If you are cut on the arm and the leg which one heals first?
A. You don't heal one then the other, they both heal together.

On a roll of a 6 first turn, the injury was light and didn't take long to heal. Alternatively it may be a deeper injury in which case it takes longer to heal.

KISS would be porting a regeneration rule straight from 40k I believe.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:44 pm

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Q. If you are cut on the arm and the leg which one heals first?
A. You don't heal one then the other, they both heal together.

True, but multiply damage will take longer to heal, so both might begin to heal, but not completely heal, thus still be combat ineffetive.

However I don't really mind which form we use.

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Markconz

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:00 pm

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Quote (ragnarok @ 31 Oct. 2005 (20:44))

Q. If you are cut on the arm and the leg which one heals first?
A. You don't heal one then the other, they both heal together.

True, but multiply damage will take longer to heal, so both might begin to heal, but not completely heal, thus still be combat ineffetive.

However I don't really mind which form we use.

I understand what you are saying - in humans multiple injuries may (but not definitely 'will' as you state) overwhelm the bodies self-regeneration mechanisms and slow healing time of all the injuries (especially due to infection etc).

However, this is not what happens to heavily wounded tyranid organisms. They are designed to withstand heavy injury and recover quickly. Tyranid warrior organisms have no objectives other than war (eg no metabolic needs for sex, acquiring resources, social interaction), their entire metabolism is geared towards being an efficient killing machine. The standard for this has been set in the fluff for both previous ediitons of epic and 40k.

We even have a current regeneration rule from 40k whihc makes this clear - lots of damage doesn't slow tyranid healing rates of injuries.

Hence I suggest we just stick with a fluff and rule mechanism already established. If there is no compelling reason to change a rule or invent a new rule then we should not do so.

I note Jaldon proposes giving regneration ability to all WE - I wonder what people think about this? Should it be restricted to just bio-titans or should lesser tyranid WE have it as well?

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:19 pm

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It all really depends on how you look at the regenertion. If it is always there chugging away in the background, thus is at a reduced effeciency if the bio construct is badly damaged (roll D6=DC remaining) or kicks in when the construct is damaged to keep it going for that bit longer (roll D6=DC lost). Thinking about it the later seems the most economical energy wise and is what bioships are said to do, so I will go for it.

As for who gets regeneration ,I think that bio titans and WE synpse creatures should but not the SHT.

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Chroma

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:24 pm

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Quote (ragnarok @ 31 Oct. 2005 (22:19))

As for who gets regeneration ,I think that bio titans and WE synpse creatures should but not the SHT.

Couldn't regeneration be based on the spawning mechanism? As in the creature would have to use a Marshall to focus its energies into repairing damage?

We've been using the "2 pips" per DC for Spawning uncommon War Engines and this could be extended to Bio-Titans as well. Or would this been too much of a garanteed "good thing"?

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:36 pm

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I prefer it being an autorepair function, like imperial titan getting a void shield back in the end phase. I believe that we are trying to balance them against other titan class WE so forcing the bio titan to marshall seems to efeat the point, since if it is marshalling it isn't marching or engaging.

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Markconz

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:55 pm

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Quote (Chroma @ 31 Oct. 2005 (21:24))

Quote (ragnarok @ 31 Oct. 2005 (22:19))

As for who gets regeneration ,I think that bio titans and WE synpse creatures should but not the SHT.

Couldn't regeneration be based on the spawning mechanism? ?As in the creature would have to use a Marshall to focus its energies into repairing damage? ?

We've been using the "2 pips" per DC for Spawning uncommon War Engines and this could be extended to Bio-Titans as well. ?Or would this been too much of a garanteed "good thing"?

This idea was kicked around a while ago and rejected. I prefer the inbuilt regeneration myself.

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Jaldon

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:40 am

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Quote Markconz
I am also not sure about your victory point rules - my first impression is that this seems to be bit of a pain in the butt from a book-keeping perspective to have these starting formations with attached VP's, which you then have to keep track of at the end of the game.
End Quote

Maybe I wasn't clear, happens all the time really, but this is actually the same way you would do points for any army in Epic-A. For example, Orks 'build' Warbands consisting of different unit strengths/types all the time, this does the same thing.

So lets assume that at the start of a battle a Tyranid Army has the following swarms led by 3xTyranid Warriors each, remember this is their point value at the start of the battle as orgainized by the Nid player when he added the Brood Creatures to the swarm as required by the rules. For this example exactly what those brood creatures are is irrelevant right now, the total point value is all that is important.

1st Swarm 350pts
2nd Swarm 300pts
3rd Swarm 400pts

Now during the course of the battle the size and strength of these swarms are going to fluctuate, but this does not change those starting point values at all, they remain constant throughout.

Our example battle ends in a tie breaker, now all our Nid player need do is count the number of Synapse Creatures left in control of each swarm, and not the brood creatures attached to it at the end of the battle. Lets say 1st swarm has 1xTyranid Warrior left, 2nd Swarms Tyranid Warriors were wiped out at the end of turn four (thus leaving some Brood Creatures still on the table as they haven't gone to ground yet), and 3rd Swarm has all three of it's Tyranid Warriors left.

1st Swarms Synapse Creatures are below half so return 1/2 the starting points of the swarm to the opponent, in this case 175pts

2nd Swarms Synapse Creatures are all dead, so the opponent gets the full starting value of the swarm or 300pts.

3rd Swarm has all of it's Synapse Creatures left so the opponent gets Opts.

So in this example the opponent got 475pts.

Does this help, or did you already understand it?

KISS=(Keep It Simple Stupid)

Jaldon

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Markconz

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:22 pm

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HI Jaldon, I understand it, but I really do wonder whether it is introducing unecessary complication, as well as being open to abuse and wierd effects.

Eg Swarms:

1. TW - 800 points
2. TW - 200 points

Turn 1: most creatures from TW 1 switch to TW 2. TW 2 is then used in lots of assualts, and no matter how many bugs die the opponent will only gain 200 VP's if he takes out TW2. TW 1 takes a less dangerous role to protect its VP's. Unfortunately the enemy launches a terminator assault against TW 2 amd for some unknown reason killing these 3 warriors turns the tide (he earns 800 VP's) despite the fact that they are identical in form and function to the TW 1 and have been playing a far less critical role in the battle.

The problem is that you are tying VP's to formations which don't really exist in anything more than a first turn abstraction (potentially very unrelated to their role or power).

Why not just go for a truly KISS system like I suggest and just add up all the tyranid biomass PV at the end of the game? ?Success would be measured in terms of all tyranid flesh on the battlefield (as well as objectives, including your synapse idea for BTS).

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Jaldon

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:37 am

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I should have known that you'd get it, I just wanted to be sure because sometimes I am not very clear :(8:

I do see what you are saying as a weakness in my idea. However, my idea allows players to use things like snipers and infiltrators to go after those synapase creatures and make doing what you have suggested costly if they get to them. I do admit it isn't perfect, and would need more work to get the bugs (pun intented) out of it

Actually a bio-mass idea was tried in the very first list, it's weakness was Nid players would get a load of extra spores for the end game, play for the Tie-Breaker, and then spawn like mad in the fourth turn. Just about a sure win everytime.

I am totally open to any ideas for either one to solve this problem.

Jaldon

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Markconz

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:58 am

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Quote (Jaldon @ 02 Nov. 2005 (04:37))

I should have known that you'd get it, I just wanted to be sure because sometimes I am not very clear :(8:

Regarding your first point Jaldon, actually I have always found your posts were right up there amongst the most insightful clearly stated and useful posts around, so no worries there! ? :;):

Regarding mycetic spores - In addition to the potential problem you describe if using them in their current form given a biomass victory condition, I have also been concerned ?about just how balanced these are in other situations...

Also... something about them just doesn't feel quite right to me at the moment. Mycetic spores are supposed to come down like drop pods... not be floating clouds of spores which somehow turn into, or summon nids. I wonder if a drop pod type rule for these might be more characterful, interesting and balanced? Plus it would let us use the excellent 40k Spore Mines on the table as proxy drop pods (possibly turned upside down so the tendrils point up rather than down).

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:53 pm

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Markconz do you mean something along the lines of

The common brood units may purchase mycetic spores for x pts each. ?Carnifexi, thropes, vores and tyranid warriors may purchase mycetic spores for y pts each.

creatures in mycetic spores may be deployed within synpase range of any synapse creature and outside of enemy ZoC at the start of any turn.

Tyranid warriors do not need to be deployed in range of other synapse cratures.

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Markconz

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:24 pm

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Quote (ragnarok @ 02 Nov. 2005 (10:53))

Now that you have said it... yes!

Or something like that anyway...

For example, maybe spores cost x points, have a transport (x), and have to planetfall.

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Jaldon

Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:27 am

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While I am not personally opposed to myecetic spores as drop pods, it may be very difficult to get it passed JJ as his view of their use is the present version and has been since day one.

Maksim would defintely have more information on this though, IE feasibility that is.

Having had the pleasure of working on the Chaos Lists an idea similar to Chaos's spawning rules for Nid spawning is dancing in my head (Like sugar plumbs :cool:

). Basically put it would work by putting a definite limit on the types the player has payed beforehand to spawn back.

This is however just in the concept stage as I have yet to figure out just how to present in workable format.

Jaldon

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