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Mojarn Piett	Post subject: Warhammer point system Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:12 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland	Re: general. Yes, I know. But the point is the DE player doesn't _have_ to have his general baby sit the spearmen. Re: detachment rules: How many people actually use them? I am far from an expert but in the small amount of games/batreps I've seen nobody has ever used the Empire detachment rules so far. I have also heard the "context explanation" many times but I don't buy it. If the idea of a point system is to give units having similar capabilities the same point values then the "context explanation" has the rug pulled from under it as it basically means each army has its own point system. As for the combat effectiveness, Empire swordsmen lose fight in 2 ranks and spear but gain a shield. They also gain +1WS. They cost 7 points, the same as DE spearmen. Taking ans equal amount of both, which side is more likely to win combat? EDIT: Oh well, I guess I got my answer so there's not much point in debating the (lack of) merits of GW's point system. What I wanted to say by the above is that, IMO, why have a point system if it is not consistent? Of course, no point system can ever be foolproof but being consistent helps a lot.   _________________ I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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Markconz	Post subject: Warhammer point system Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:43 am
Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand	Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 04 Nov. 2005 (06:12)) Re: general. Yes, I know. But the point is the DE player doesn't _have_ to have his general baby sit the spearmen. Re: detachment rules: How many people actually use them? I am far from an expert but in the small amount of games/batreps I've seen nobody has ever used the Empire detachment rules so far. I have also heard the "context explanation" many times but I don't buy it. If the idea of a point system is to give units having similar capabilities the same point values then the "context explanation" has the rug pulled from under it as it basically means each army has its own point system. As for the combat effectiveness, Empire swordsmen lose fight in 2 ranks and spear but gain a shield. They also gain +1WS. They cost 7 points, the same as DE spearmen. Taking ans equal amount of both, which side is more likely to win combat? EDIT: Oh well, I guess I got my answer so there's not much point in debating the (lack of) merits of GW's point system. What I wanted to say by the above is that, IMO, why have a point system if it is not consistent? Of course, no point system can ever be foolproof but being consistent helps a lot. ? Actually you might be surprised - a Dark elf Lord and battle standard bearer may well be used to inspire the rank and file. Just such a tactic was used by a dark elf army in a recent tournament here. RE: Detachment rules - they are very powerful and useful - every empire army I have fought has used them, and I dislike them very much. Ability to flank charge when not in flank arc is a killer. Yes you are right armies have context specific points systems. A good idea too    A balanced points system has to account for how a unit interacts with other units in its army. Re: Empire swordsmen. They have +1 WS and +1 I over spearmen. Crucially they also get the hand weapon and shield combo (+1 armour save). The answer to your question about which is more likely to win a combat (Empire Swordsmen or DE Spearmen) depends on who has flanks, numbers and luck!  The swordsmen are tougher, the spearmen more attacks. Ok, forgive me for saying so Mojarn, but you seem very determined to criticise the points values, but obviously without an understanding of the WFB list and mechanics... Have you actually played WFB 7th, or are you just trying to make sense of apparantly discrepant points values by looking at army lists and second hand battle reports? Admittedly some points values and things are screwy in WFB (eg Skaven ratling guns), but not the things you are talking about... I know you are still bitter that the Squats were wiped out by tyranids (emperor be praised the adeptus astartes were saved the time and effort), but  please at least try pick on actual weaknesses of GW     _________________ http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Warhammer point system Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:55 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland

Ok, forgive me for saying so Mojarn, but you seem very determined to criticise the points values, but obviously without an understanding of the WFB list and mechanics... Have you actually played WFB 7th, or are you just trying to make sense of apparantly discrepant points values by looking at army lists and second hand battle reports? Yes and no. No, I have not played it in the proper sense of the word. But. I have enough experience (20 years or so) in studying and distmantling wargames rules I have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics themselves. Yes you are right armies have context specific points systems. A good idea too    A balanced points system has to account for how a unit interacts with other units in its army.

In this I disagree. It is VERY difficult to try and make a good point system which fairly rates abilities and the different combos of ability values. It is impossible to take into the equation the combinations of units. To tread that path is to walk a really slippery slope. If there is a X point unit it should be about equal in ability to any other X point unit regardless of army.


Re: Empire swordsmen. They have +1 WS and +1 I over spearmen.


Uh-huh. So they have only 1,5 of the 5 boosts a DE spearman has but still they cost the same. Of course, if you give Empire spearmen a shield, so do they. Without the WS and I boost. So obviously the fight in ranks is worth something.


I know you are still bitter that the Squats were wiped out by tyranids (emperor be praised the adeptus astartes were saved the time and effort),


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but  please at least try pick on actual weaknesses of GW


I am, as I consider an inconsistent point system to be a major weakness.