I have to agree with you, Jaldon.

I really don't think the Luftwaffe could have wrested the total air superiority required to gain complete control of the Channel/North Sea for an invasion. The Luftwaffe really wasn't designed to be a strategic air arm as the USAAF and RAF were. The Luftwaffe never did manage to develop a strategic bomber like the B-17, which first saw service around 1935.

Plus, as Jaldon points out, the KM just didn't have the lift capacity in 1940 to sustain an invasion of such magnitude or even an extended naval campaign. Remember, Hitler told his admirals that they didn't have to prepare for a war until at least 1944!

Since Hitler was a closet Anglophile, Sealion was, in fact, never anything more than a bluff. Again as Jaldon mentioned, Hitler was simply hoping for a treaty with England that would allow him freehand to invade the Soviet Union. IIRC, Hitler was surprised that England actually was willing to ally with the Soviet Union in the first place.

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Bottom line ... the Germans just didn't the "right stuff" to invade the UK !  And I've heard similar stories of USSR vehicle maint. standards ... they leave a lot of stuff broken down along their routes of march !  

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

In regards to the homeguard in the operation sealion situation. Many of the low level field commanders were veterans of the Spanish civil war. Documents have come to light that they were planning to assasinate any UK politicians that were thinking of surreendering to any fascist forces. They had learnt to fight an effective and brutal war with limited supplies. Many may not have been fans of Stalin, but it could have come to the Soviets supplying left wing partisans in Britain to keep the heat off the eastern front!

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Yes, there are some interesting stories/ rumors about that sort of thing ... A UK Force supplied by Stalin to push the Germans back into the sea ... sounds like a neat scenario !  And I don't think the Germans even like Fish & Chips !  

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Hi!

There's another twist to sealion one could explore. How about Germany NOT going to war against russia, just dedicating itself to England?

Given a year of two, especially with Me-262's available in 1942 (which they could have been had Hitler not put them off becuase the war was initially going well).

A different outcome for sure.

Primarch

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70-80% of all Germans Killed in WWII were in the East. That's a lot of troops that could have been used elsewhere !

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Quote (primarch @ Oct. 06 2005,15:44)

Hi! There's another twist to sealion one could explore. How about Germany NOT going to war against russia, just dedicating itself to England? Given a year of two, especially with Me-262's available in 1942 (which they could have been had Hitler not put them off becuase the war was initially going well). A different outcome for sure. Primarch

I don't think Hitler even considered NOT invading Russia. True, he would have had a lot of resources to throw at the British, but you might as well as argue what would have happened if the Kriegsmarine had till 1944 to prepare for war as Hitler told his admirals.

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Hitler did prevaricate in his attack on Russia for a long time though, playing Churchill off against Stalin, I think he could have delayed the 2-front war for a much longer time than he did.

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Quote (Legion 4 @ Oct. 06 2005,15:47)

70-80% of all Germans Killed in WWII were in the East. That's a lot of troops that could have been used elsewhere !

The issue with Sealion was never with the number or quality of troops or the quantity and type of weaponry.

Sealion would have only worked if the Germans could have got a foothold and more importantly managed to maintain that foothold with plentiful supplies.

Even with air superiority there was not the naval support needed for a full scale invasion of the UK.

One thing that is often forgotten is that though the Allies won the war with the truck, the Germans (especially in 1940-41) were heavily reliant on horses for transportation of logistical supplies (and in some cases artillery). Feeding troops is one thing, feeding horses is another...

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Hitlers attack on the Soviet Union was done to beat Stalin to the jump, there is more then enough evidence that this is exactly what Stalin was planning on doing. Whether he could have actually pulled it off is another matter, ala Finland.

Another argument: It is true that most of the German losses were suffered on the eastern front, one cannot forget that a lot of the Luftwaffe was brought home to defend Germany, along with many of their best pilots,  which allowed the USSR to gain local superiority in vital combat areas.

Also, the USSR was allowed to concentrate most of it's production on Tanks, and other weaponry because the US supplied them with so many trucks and, more importantly, vaccuum tubes.

For basic info 75% to 80% of all German Artillery was horse drawn, and that was in 1939-1940.

Jaldon

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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.

So, basically, the Germans didn't have the sealift capacity to pull it off.  

Also, there's a pretty good-sized chunk of Britain that's hittable from Naval gunfire, so the problem of horse-drawn artillery may be overstated.

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Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ Oct. 06 2005,11:06)

Quote (primarch @ Oct. 06 2005,15:44) Hi! There's another twist to sealion one could explore. How about Germany NOT going to war against russia, just dedicating itself to England? Given a year of two, especially with Me-262's available in 1942 (which they could have been had Hitler not put them off becuase the war was initially going well). A different outcome for sure. Primarch I don't think Hitler even considered NOT invading Russia. True, he would have had a lot of resources to throw at the British, but you might as well as argue what would have happened if the Kriegsmarine had till 1944 to prepare for war as Hitler told his admirals.

Hi!

Oh, I know, he HATED them, real bad.

But then again, it is a "What if" discussion....  

Primarch

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Quote (Jaldon @ Oct. 06 2005,17:02)

Hitlers attack on the Soviet Union was done to beat Stalin to the jump, there is more then enough evidence that this is exactly what Stalin was planning on doing. Whether he could have actually pulled it off is another matter, ala Finland. Another argument: It is true that most of the German losses were suffered on the eastern front, one cannot forget that a lot of the Luftwaffe was brought home to defend Germany, along with many of their best pilots, ?which allowed the USSR to gain local superiority in vital combat areas. Also, the USSR was allowed to concentrate most of it's production on Tanks, and other weaponry because the US supplied them with so many trucks and, more importantly, vaccuum tubes. For basic info 75% to 80% of all German Artillery was horse drawn, and that was in 1939-1940. Jaldon

Hi!

I sometimes wonder that if russia had invaded that would have been a major disaster for them. Imagine the germans not having to chase their prey, but have them all up front ready for encirclement and decimation. They after all would not benefit from their experience as they did in real life with the germans.

Another twist would be, what if the germans would have treated the citizens of the ukraine and other soviet republics better? They were greated well initially. Heck, perhaps even granting them limited independance in exchange for manpower...

Primarch

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All good points, but as I said, the KM would need lift assets (Landing Craft, etc.) to get the combat forces to the beach and provide supplies at a steady rate.  And the RN and RAF would still have to be nullified, at least ...

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Quote (Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 07 2005,00:11)

Also, there's a pretty good-sized chunk of Britain that's hittable from Naval gunfire, so the problem of horse-drawn artillery may be overstated.

True

However the KM did not have that many ships...

Naval fire at that time over distance certainly was not as accurate as it is today.

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