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? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ?
Honda	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:44 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	What I'd like to know is whether or not any 4.2 list is considering using the Taros vehicle options from 40K and upgrading the Epic list. In particular, I'm wondering if the DF will get SMS. BTW, my first post, though I have been monitoring the Tau list since it's inception on the various forums where this has been discussed. So a long way to say "Hey!", which is Texan for Hi or Howdy. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Tactica	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:04 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	HONDA! Glad you could make it Good openning post. Now that FW has made some pretty bold changes to the 40K list, and much of which is appearently writing on the wall, one wonders if we'll see such Epic changes as SMS on DF, cheaper crisis (25 base in IA:3), network markers on Skyray and Tiger alternates, alternate crisis suits, Manta rework - now that 40K stats and Epic stats exist, GM across the board down to 5+... and well, you get the idea Way to early to tell if we'll see the epic list develop some of these options, but IA:3 has given Epic Tau plenty to chew on from it's 40K and Epic tau revisions IMHO. Welcome again Honda! _________________ Rob
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darkone26	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:30 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:34 pm Posts: 956	Cybershadow: Thats a bummer, didnt know that.  Does that apply to FW as well as SG? Welcome Honda!
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CyberShadow	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:33 am
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9348 Location: Singapore	I think that it is across the board, with no seminars at all and a stand for the three main games and then FW, SG, BL, etc. It was in the latest (UK) WD. The change in venue has allowed a change in format, and I think that GW were a bit irritated by all of the 'secret' info making its way onto the net (I ended up with an mp3 recording of the entire seminar from last year!). I also guess that this is more in line with their idea of not showing so many unreleased stuff any more. Still... any pictures of the day... you know where to send them!   _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Honda	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:47 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Hey yourself Rob, and glad to be here to the rest of you. I just wanted to say that I've enjoyed the level of discussion that existed on the other forums and look forward to the future topics on this board. So, anyway, I was asking because I'm slowly gathering resources for a FW purchase. Right now, I'll be focusing on the basics for me, which would feature in a "Mech" list. I'm currently considering: Name Units Cost Hunter Cadre 8 x FW, 4 x Devilfish 300 Hunter Cadre 8 x FW, 4 x Devilfish 300 Battlesuit Cadre 4 x Crisis 250 Tetra contingent 6 x Tetras 150 Tetra contingent 6 x Tetras 150 Hammerhead Sqdn 3 x RH, 2 x IH, 1 x SF 400 Hammerhead Sqdn 3 x RH, 2 x IH, 1 x SF 400 Shas?O 1 x Commander 100 Barracuda 3 x Barracuda 250 Whiteshark 2 x Whiteshark 350 2650 Comments appreciated. Tactica will be familiar with my overall approach given our discussions on other lists. Thanx again everyone! _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Tactica	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:28 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	So, my IA3 book finally arrives and I've had a chance to bury myself in its pages for the past few hours. Wow... great book! This is easily the best IA release, and I really liked the first one quite a bit. (IG, Chaos, and Tau fan here) In reviewing IA:3, I have mixed feelings about the book on the Epic front. The epic tau list in the book is outdated - example: they don't have the correct GM rules. They have several of the unit sizes wrong and several points costs are out of wack. My comments of course are coming from my Tau v4.1 perspective... and v4.1 is getting to the point where its due for some revisions itself... so... the rumor was true, the forgeworld epic list was based upon the v4.0 playtest list. poop. On the other hand, the IA:3 Epic Tau has Forgeworld's perspective of what their vehicles should look like in epic as I don't believe we had the FW stuff in to the extent that we do now. So in IA:3, we get to see the way forgeworld would outfit their own craft - which were probably balanced/based upon the other existing tau v4.0 list of units at that time anyway. but that's OK still. The tigershark with railguns (Whiteshark) looks to be much better than the current version being playtested for example. 90cm MW3+ TK(D3) - and wait for it - no slow firing! whoo-hoo! The 40K version of this thing also gives us some great insite as to how it should look in epic. They've also done some things like GM 5+ across the board. That's nice to see. There's no mooray in the list though   ========40K alert============ Oddly enough, they are making a MANTA for 40K... lol, in 40K, it will cost 1980 points! You can have 1-3 in a detachment in 40K!!! The manta carries an army and they appear to be positioning it for full out play. It's a 10 structure point super heavy flyer orbital lander in 40K with a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits, front armor 13, side armor 12, and rear armor 11! In 40K, it will pack the following: TL heavy railguns (yep, Titan killer ordaninace weapons D3) 3x TL long barrelled on cannons TL missle pods 16 drone controlled long barrelled burst cannons 10 seeker missles Network marker light It's also going to transport: upper deck: 48 tau warriors, or 12 heavy gun drones, or 24 kroot hounds Lower deck: 140 warriors or 4 devilfish each loaded 12 FW or 12 PF's or 4 hammerhead/skyrays or 4 pirahna *AND* 10 crisis or 5 broadsides Furthermore, instead of the lower deck carrying any of the above vehicles, it may instead swap out all vehicle capacity with: 50 crisis or 25 broadsides or 36 heavy gun drones or 12 dron sentry turrets or 12 tetras Finally, tau warriors in transport capacity is synonomous for firewarriors, kroot, stealthsuits, pathfinders, or gun drones. Pathfinders don't have to take the devilfish either when on board a manta ========end 40K alert=============== So i wonder if we'll take any of this into account with future tau list development. Ok, getting sleepy now... _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:50 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Honda @ 19 2005 Aug.,13:47) Hey yourself Rob, and glad to be here to the rest of you. I just wanted to say that I've enjoyed the level of discussion that existed on the other forums and look forward to the future topics on this board. So, anyway, I was asking because I'm slowly gathering resources for a FW purchase. Right now, I'll be focusing on the basics for me, which would feature in a "Mech" list. I'm currently considering: Name Units Cost Hunter Cadre 8 x FW, 4 x Devilfish 300 Hunter Cadre 8 x FW, 4 x Devilfish 300 Battlesuit Cadre 4 x Crisis 250 Tetra contingent 6 x Tetras 150 Tetra contingent 6 x Tetras 150 Hammerhead Sqdn 3 x RH, 2 x IH, 1 x SF 400 Hammerhead Sqdn 3 x RH, 2 x IH, 1 x SF 400 Shas?O 1 x Commander 100 Barracuda 3 x Barracuda 250 Whiteshark 2 x Whiteshark 350 2650 Comments appreciated. Tactica will be familiar with my overall approach given our discussions on other lists. Thanx again everyone! Honda, Good base force to start with. In the 'models that aren't yet available thread' I posted the list of models I recently ordered. I found that there were certain ways to order models based upon the best usage. Example, if you are making 3 formations of hammerheads and going to convert a swordfish for each one, then you are going to end up with 3 extra devilfish! If you buy a couple packs of skyrays, and you are making two narwhal's (Scorpionfish) you are going to end up with 2 devilfish and 4 skyrays (one skyray could become another devilfish conversion though...) also, If you are going to play stingrays, you'll buy two packs of the misslepod hammerheads likely... that means you'll need four hammerheads with MP's and you'll have two devilfish left voer from those too. So the short story here is I think you'll have quite a few 'devilfish' after you make some other conversions and units up... BTW: I like your formations of hammerheads, and I recommend 2-3 of said formation! Also, regarding your list - epic midpoint games are 3500. I'd look at beefing up the two FW cadres a bit. The shas'o commander is not a stand alone unit - he's added into the crisis formation - don't know if you knew that.... I also would add heavy gun drones to the formation for now - but if we take the crisis to Infantry instead of Light vehicles (as we should IMHO) then I'd replace the heavy gun drones with stealths and then add a unit of regular gun drones to the formation for ablative hits. You need the crisis to live. Also, keep in mind that blast markers can break your formations as soon as you have as many blast markers on the formation as you have models left... and you get a blast marker not only for coming under fire, but also for taking damage. So if your crisis come under fire twice and take one damage or come under fire once and take two damage = you are going to have 3 blast marers on the formation and only 3 models - pop, they will break! If this is before you get to activate them, that can really hurt. 4 stands is too fragile for an infantry formation that doesn't have the terminators staying power - and crisis don't have the terminators staying power! Note that the real punch you have in this force as built is the 4 man crisis and the two hammerhead formations. The rest is all AP only shots. If you only have 3 formations that can deal AT damage, you may find yourself handycapped quick against certain armor heavy lists. Also, the moorays when fielded in pairs can have some staying power and are handy anti-armor with the ion-phalanx... if we fix the rail cannons on them, they will become more viable too. They are handy as is now with the ion-weapons though. Personally, I've had difficulty getting milage out of the narwhal's, stingrays, and orca's. I'd steer clear of the latter two anyway, the narwhal is a fun conversion and a heavy mobile marker light system... so, its fun to make, looks neat, and hopefully will be getting a face lift soon to become more effective. I've found that lots of drones from FW are a must have. I've purchased 8 packs now. The reason is you can put one on a stand of each pathfnder or fw squad and get more units to fill out your formation. As drones are factored into all units/stands stats - it also makes sense. You can also use them to spruce up your commander stands. Finally, drones are handy for ablative damage so are good upgrades to take in general with units. I think I went through 8 packs of drones by the time I built my stealths, pathfinders, firewarriros and crisis + actual drone units. Hope that gives you something to think about. _________________ Rob
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nealhunt	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:42 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Oddly enough, they are making a MANTA for 40K... lol, in 40K, it will cost 1980 points! You can have 1-3 in a detachment in 40K!!! I've noticed some other similar design trends with 40K.  They seem to be working towards accomodating really large battles (like 4K+). _________________ Neal

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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	Good Lord!  The Manta is going to cost 1980, in US dollars, too! (Given how much the THawk is). Well, the points system really starts to break down above 4k, but the entire ravenwing in 40k is 'only' about 4500 points.  The Deathwing is pushing 8k, though. I've played a 9k point game, before, but that was on a gym floor with lots of titans. _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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baronpiero	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:13 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186	I received the book. The thing is more than 300 pages. Just amazing. About half is background information about the world of Taros, the forces that fought here and actual battles. Most of the gaming material is meant for warhammer 40K. Still there is one nice scenario for E:A, a Tau army list and alternative weapon configs for Forgeworld IG models. The Epic Tau list is very similar from the one we are discussing here, and I did not spot a lot of things worth adding to our list. Still it looks like development that occured so far has gone the right way Here are some actual changes: >There some changes in unit stats, but I am not very fond of them in general: [-_] Broadside are presumably one to a base at 75 pts. [--] Manta is about half less gunned, but is a true flyer that can land at any time. It has FF +3 and 9 DC (and here you have your growing power of aircraft ) > Still there is some nice stuff: [+_] New entry, Remote Sensor Tower: an immobile light vehicle that 'holds' a markerligh [++] New entry, Kroot Knarloc Riders. I am eager to see the minis > Army selection: FW changed a lot of things here: [++] Firewarrior cadre starts with 6 units for 150 points. I quite like this. It enforces the idea of them being the cheapest main cadre. Implementing this in our list would allow to give them more upgrades, without the formation becoming too expensive. It woud make Firewarriors far far more toolable than crisis. I will try it! [+_] Hammerhead Upgrage +3 HH for 200 points. Why not? It makes sense as to how models are sold, and could work well along with the less numerous FW. Maybe I'll try it too. [--] Stealth contingent is 4 units without flexability. Bad. [_+] Hammerhead contingent: 3HH + 2HH + 0-1Skyray. Not keen on taht change. the 4HH ?+ 2HH we currently use works fine. Maybe try 3HH + 3HH some day... [-_] Tetra contingent start at 4 instead of 6. Not a good idea because it allows to min-max on ultimate spotters far too much. [--] Barracuda in squadrons of 2: Well, considering that Thunderbolts will get greater effectives in the forthcoming rules review, it is an unecessary change, and does not make any sense as to how models are sold. > One last thing: the list is presented with two columns per page: as a result the list is only 7 against 16 pages. > Something else?
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Tactica	Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Been out of the loop for a bit - rough week... Baron P, I'm at work now, but from memory - it seems IA3 list was quite different from ours. IA3:epic Tau is also missing the scorpionfish (narwhal), swordfish, stingray and Moray from their list. (may have said that in a previous post though...) I believe they added an entry for the sentry turrets. All GM in their list are also set to 5+... I thought this was great at first as that's what our current list needs (and has been discussed for v4.2 in the past) then I read further though... They are using a completely different version of the Markerlight and GM rule. You can only fire GM's if there's a marker within range of the target. There is no +1 to hit. So their to hits are no different than ours with GM's, but you don't actually get the chance to even fire if there's not a marker in range. So theirs is messed up too. Furthermore, Pathfinders are the only ones that confer a +1 to hit for units using their markers.... so in the case of pathfinders, it actually makes them more valuable than ours as a formation fireing at a pathfinder marked unit on sustained fire could get down to 3+... granted, the chances of all that coming together are slim, but it makes the PF formation more appealing than the typical FW formation. Their alternate tigershark's main gun with railguns is better than ours. 90cm MW 3+ TKd3 if memory serves...   Oronically, the main weapon on our '4.1 vault' whiteshark (no MW) is better than our '4.1 proposed' version of the whiteshark (MW and TK1). The FW version of the whiteshark is better at doing its job 'titan hunting' than either one of our versions. I think they achieved the titan hunting effectiveness of the ship but, I see no reason for 90cm gun on a flier. 45cm should be the max. Their manta on the other hand lost ion phalanx and simply has 2 ion cannon shots - blah! It has the same 'railguns' entry as the above whiteshark but for 850 points instead of the whiteshark's 350 for 2 or whatever price it is. The Manta in IA:3 is a steaming pile IMHO. I can see no reason in taking the one we have for 850 points, theirs is just a sad joke. Also, they have the rules in their for the 'support craft' rule like we have for the morray and manta in the beginning of their rules second... However, their manta is labled as a WE-Bomber. So it moves as an aircraft. In their special rules/notes area of the manta - it has the spacecraft rule though... since the speed is labled as 'aircraft' - this equates to a plane that can move like a bomber and appearently leaves like a bomber, but like all planes, can have clear LOS to anywhere on the table and it can be seen back, but in assault if fights like a skimmer unless the assaulting unit has jump packs... LOL. Finally, many of their formations are ultimately smaller with less upgrades. This makes the list much less flexible and creates lots of small cheap formations for no particular reason. Personally, I think their Epic tau list is significantly different than ours, and I think its really behind the times at best. There's very little I can glean from their list that looks appealing to me. I do like: 1) the idea of +3 HH as an upgrade ot our existing formation instead of +2. 2) their version of the whiteshark's main gun, but I think 90cm is too much. 3) GM 5+ across the board, but using our version of the markerlight/GM rules. 4) smaller base FW cadre's at 150 so upgrades don't make the formation so much more expensive - as per Baron P's post. 'wave' Rob _________________ Rob
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baronpiero

Post subject: ? Taros Campaign IA:3 - Epic List ? Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:43 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186

Tactica: I'm at work now, but from memory - it seems IA3 list was quite different from ours. Sure, I didn't meant ?1:1 identical. To be true I am pleased because I first expected something completely different from the list we are putting-up here, because FW did not seem to worry much about what was going on the specialist games side. Still there's a lot of differences everywhere, and they chose to concentrate on models about to be released, but that does not make us have to reconsider the direction the list is taking: forgeworld did not bar something entirely, meaning it's bad design. So that's quite encouraging. Tactica: All GM in their list are also set to 5+... I thought this was great at first as that's what our current list needs (and has been discussed for v4.2 in the past) then I read further though... They are using a completely different version of the Markerlight and GM rule.

Yes, their version of GM is the worst possible: you don't have unguided shots and have just the same peak efficiency that we have now

Well, I would like to see an improvement aswell, but the increasement should be on the markerlight's side, therefore keeping AT6+ basis for a seeker, and ML gives +2 to hit). But ultimately I would prefer to see unguided shot go away (so AT4+ -works only if guided by a ML-)


TacticaFurthermore, Pathfinders are the only ones that confer a +1 to hit for units using their markers.... so in the case of pathfinders, it actually makes them more valuable
In fact, the current rule in our 4.1 list already makes pathfinders very good spotters:
- they have coordinate fire
- they are a cheap formation
- the actual number of markerlights does not come into consideration.

Therefore I find that giving them an extra +1 would just be exaggerated. I mean, pathfinder already are the best GM spotters

Still the idea is woth keeping in case we may want to make the number of markerlights relevant, to avoid min-maxing too much on spotters for example.

Tactica
The FW version of the whiteshark is better at doing its job 'titan hunting' than either one of our versions.
The whiteshark in playtest was not given multiple damage exactly to prevent it from becoming a Titan killer, which is meant no be the RGMooray area of expertise (For the moment I am quite fine with that personally).


The Manta in IA:3 is a steaming pile IMHO. I can see no reason in taking the one we have for 850 points, theirs is just a sad joke

This thing is particular isn't? Their Manta is pictured as a 9DC thunderhawk . A giant space shuttle.