"Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors |
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yme-loc
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors  Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:54 pm |
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| Quote (Tactica @ 09 2005 Aug.,23:12) | | We could say a new weapon was going to be created that was called "Vibro Cannon" in the next Xenos list of your choosing... (hypothetically speaking)... this powerful blast of focused energy causes large mechanical beasts to rumble, shake, and degrade as the vehicles own wieght works against itself. Roll a number of dice equal to the number of DC the target WE has. On a 4+ it takes a hit that cannot be saved regardless of whether it has RA or not. |
That sounds like a good idea perhaps we can add it to the next eldar list  .
You are probably getting a little carried away over quite a small problem (of course I would say that as I want to destroy all your pitiful Tau war machines with my superior lance technology).
From a background perspective a lance weapon doesn't work by being more powerful than a normal anti tank weapon its abilities are based on its precise pin point nature and the accuracy of eldar targetting systems.
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Tactica
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:57 am |
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You call it "getting a little carried away over quite a small problem" - fair enough. We're all entitled to our opinions and I respect yours.
I call it recognizing a development flaw or currently a "little problem" and working to close a loop-hole that may get exploited at a later date.
After all, solving problems in playtest is what we are all supposed to do before the masses encounter the problem - or before it grows into a larger problem post production.
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Rob
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asaura
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:28 am |
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| Quote (yme-loc @ 09 2005 Aug.,23:54) | | Quote (Tactica @ 09 2005 Aug.,23:12) | | We could say a new weapon was going to be created that was called "Vibro Cannon" in the next Xenos list of your choosing... (hypothetically speaking)... this powerful blast of focused energy causes large mechanical beasts to rumble, shake, and degrade as the vehicles own wieght works against itself. Roll a number of dice equal to the number of DC the target WE has. On a 4+ it takes a hit that cannot be saved regardless of whether it has RA or not. |
That sounds like a good idea perhaps we can add it to the next eldar list ? . |
That doesn't sound like a good idea. In fact, that sounds terrible. We already have rules for our game. Weapon- and unit-specific special rules are the road to ruin.
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yme-loc
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:06 am |
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| Quote (asaura @ 10 2005 Aug.,05:28) | | Quote (yme-loc @ 09 2005 Aug.,23:54) | | Quote (Tactica @ 09 2005 Aug.,23:12) | | We could say a new weapon was going to be created that was called "Vibro Cannon" in the next Xenos list of your choosing... (hypothetically speaking)... this powerful blast of focused energy causes large mechanical beasts to rumble, shake, and degrade as the vehicles own wieght works against itself. Roll a number of dice equal to the number of DC the target WE has. On a 4+ it takes a hit that cannot be saved regardless of whether it has RA or not. |
That sounds like a good idea perhaps we can add it to the next eldar list ? . |
That doesn't sound like a good idea. In fact, that sounds terrible. We already have rules for our game. Weapon- and unit-specific special rules are the road to ruin. |
Wow we eldar players must really have a bad rep if you thought I was being serious.
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yme-loc
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:12 am |
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| Quote (Tactica @ 10 2005 Aug.,02:57) | You call it "getting a little carried away over quite a small problem" - fair enough. We're all entitled to our opinions and I respect yours.
I call it recognizing a development flaw or currently a "little problem" and working to close a loop-hole that may get exploited at a later date.
After all, solving problems in playtest is what we are all supposed to do before the masses encounter the problem - or before it grows into a larger problem post production. |
Why is it a design flaw?
From a background description of the way lances work and the way these strange Tau shields work I would say it makes sense to treat the lance as a normal AT shot.
Its an assumption that any new classes of weapon's will be created anyway as far as I am aware there arn't any in the pipeline.
If its a problem for Tau in terms of game play then it should be changed, otherwise I think its characterful (but as I said - I would say that ).
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Steele
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:36 am |
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| Quote (Tactica @ 10 2005 Aug.,03:57) | I call it recognizing a development flaw or currently a "little problem" and working to close a loop-hole that may get exploited at a later date.
After all, solving problems in playtest is what we are all supposed to do before the masses encounter the problem - or before it grows into a larger problem post production. |
Tactica,
I wouldn?t say it?s a development flaw. Sure I often lose a Moray due to failed saves, but that how the game functions. You have Vehicle X with its abilities and I need Vehicle Y to beat it. If I am willing to accept the requirements ( aka Points Value ) then I have a go. Otherwise I have to live to tell the story. The point is that there have always been Weapons or Units that seem overpowered to the gamer on the losing end, and those complain about it more often when their Units fail to hurt the enemy effectively. The deflector is not a perfect one, just now I remember the Star Wars RPG - they have 2 types of shields - one for solid slug and one for energy weapons. Both do their work, and both aren?t the leading edge of what I would understand as shield technology. You complain about the deflector not beeing future proof, but what kind of technology is? Have you ever read the German SF Books of Perry Rhodan? There they have about a dozen different Shield Types, each came into development after a serious defeat by a new enemy, same goes for Weapons. Why should it be different in the case of the deflector? Let?s wait sometime more, and if there are those problems you point out - there might be a development. Otherwise I would think that we are playing in a static universe, where no development occurs. That would be inacceptable, not a tiny "Design Flaw". The Tau will adapt.
Cheers!
Steele
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nealhunt
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:54 pm |
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The only determination that might need to be made in the future in order to determine interaction with a Tau shield is whether "weapon x" should be counted as a special case of an AT, MW, or TK weapon.
In this case, Lance = AT. Any future determinations will be equally as simple, though I'm sure they'll be open to the same debate as this one.
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baronpiero
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:15 pm |
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TacticaInv Save Chart
3+ = TK
4+ = MW
5+ = Anything besides regular AT that's not a TK or MW
6+ = AT Only
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The problem with such increasement (independently from costing), is that we might enter an area where Titan killer weapons are not worth using against Support Craft.
To date, only Eldar Titans have such powerful shields and it must stay only one army in a million IMO.
The current shielding is already quite efficient against TK, but is still at a level where Titan-killer weapons are the best weapons you can pick-up to deal with a Support Craft. Well, at least that's what I calculated for the manta considering its 4+RA save in the process. I won't bet the same is true with the moray which only has 5+RA, because less save means TK is of much less worth.
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vanvlak
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:57 pm |
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Hi guys,
as you might (or might not) know, in Jimmy Grill's current absence CS - who is at the moment busy - has temporarily appointed me moderator. Now I have to say I'm guilty of not having read many of your posts befire this happened - I don't have a Tau army, and have few prospects of getting one.  I've now therefore began to puruse your diverse recommendations and altercations with more care ( ok, pompous mode now switched off). I must say I'm impressed - no, awed, almost - by the dedication you have and the intensity of your posts. The Tau wing is certainly lively, and I can't imagine how Epic could die out with the likes of you around, even if GW pulled the plug out of support for good. I'm more into modelling than rules, but I think a real forum with all of you in a big room having a nice, grand debate would be worth attending. 
Cheers all. You might even convince me to invest in Tau - at which point the Tau will start losing battles regardless of what you manage to come up with... I'm that good at losing.
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Steele
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:16 pm |
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| Quote (vanvlak @ 10 2005 Aug.,18:57) | Hi guys,
as you might (or might not) know, in Jimmy Grill's current absence CS - who is at the moment busy - has temporarily appointed me moderator. Now I have to say I'm guilty of not having read many of your posts befire this happened - I don't have a Tau army, and have few prospects of getting one. ?I've now therefore began to puruse your diverse recommendations and altercations with more care ( ok, pompous mode now switched off). I must say I'm impressed - no, awed, almost - by the dedication you have and the intensity of your posts. The Tau wing is certainly lively, and I can't imagine how Epic could die out with the likes of you around, even if GW pulled the plug out of support for good. I'm more into modelling than rules, but I think a real forum with all of you in a big room having a nice, grand debate would be worth attending. ?
Cheers all. You might even convince me to invest in Tau - at which point the Tau will start losing battles regardless of what you manage to come up with... ?I'm that good at losing. |
Hi,
You are welcome. You loaded yourself with great responsibility, my respect.
Cheers!
Steele
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Random
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:48 am |
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As far as I see it the shields are fine as is, its similar to ignore cover weapons. Siege infantry pay for bunkers etc which are just ignored by such weapons. Where as a marine still gets its 4+ save and loss of -1 to hit). Certain weapons are just better against certain targets. Lance is not as common as ignore cover and ignore cover is more powerful(reducing the siegers 4+ save to none). An AT lance shot is still an AT shot in the same way an AP ignore cover shot is still an AP shot.
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vanvlak
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:08 am |
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Hi Steele and all - and don't get me wrong, I'm not preparing the Tau list - just holding fort until CS gets back. I couldn't compile rules to save my life 
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Tactica
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:19 pm |
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Steele,
Regards to your statement:
You complain about the deflector not beeing future proof, but what kind of technology is? |
My answer is "anything that gives a save without a prerequisite qualifier." This is basically all over saves in the game to my knowledge.
I'll explain my answer by examples:
An armor save is future proof. It always works unless a weapon specifically designed to break the armor save is fired - i.e. MW/TK.
A Reinforced Armor save is future proof. It always works unless a weapon specifically designed to break the Reinforced Armor save is fired - i.e. TK.
Void shields are future proof. They work against all hits that aren't base to base close combat hits, regardless of weapon type being fired. The only exception would be if a weapon comes out which is specifically designed to circumvent Void Shields.
Inulnerable saves are future proof. They work against all hits against the target, regardless of weapon type being fired. The only exception would be if a weapon comes out which is specifically designed to circumvent Invulnerable Saves.
Holofields are future proof. They work against all incoming shots, regardless of weapon type being fired. The only exception would be if a weapon comes out which is specifically designed to circumvent Holofields.
Our deflector is NOT future proof. It has a qualifier in order to work. It's qualifiers are that the shot in question must be an AT, MW, or TK qualifier thus denoting the sheilds effectiveness... however, if a weapon that comes along is named something else but has the same affect against the shielded vehicle in question (Moray in this case), then the deflector will have no or reduced effect as the weapons type is not qualified in our shield. (i.e. Lance works as AT but is really MW against the Moray)
Therefore, yes - this is a design flaw as the deflector is not future proof as is the precident for Epic:A. That is the defacto standard or precident to the best of my knowledge anyway.
Everyone,
Fair enough - I'll back off of this issue for now - especially when the crisis and broadsides being LV's is more of a hot issue and one of much more significant impact anyway right now.
I'll wait until the next weapon comes along that 'breaks the tau deflector' like the Lance does before I bring this one up again.
Because I'm backing off though, it doesn't mean I concede. It simply means I'm alone on this mountain. Appearently the consensus is not to change something that's not currently being broke. I disagree with that methodology but see no point continuing the thread if I stand alone.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:38 pm |
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I see your point, Tactica. I agree that future special weapons will require specification. I'd say most people recognize that and agree.
The Holofield is a good example of what happens. It's not "future proof" as you stated.
It has a funky interaction with armor saves, i.e. if you take it you don't get your armor save, but you can take a save if you have RA. It therefore required a specific reference to a weapon that also had an unusual interaction with armor - Lance.
Obviously, they were developed at the same time but that does not change the fact that it is a special rule referencing another special rule.
In an ideal game system that would not happen. With 8 sets of racial abilities/technology from the 40K verse to simulate, though, chances are very good that there are going to be some future interactions like that. In fact, I'd say it's unavoidable. The key is to keep an eye on potential future problems and have a mechanism that should handle it smoothly.
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Tactica
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Post subject: "Lance" weapons vs tau deflectors Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:22 pm |
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NH,
Thanks for acknowledgement of the situation. I agree with everything you've said.
Unfortunately, I really like the Deflector and its 'level of effectiveness' mechanism. Unfortunately, I see an area that *may* get exploited over time.
It would appear now is not the time to address it - which admittingly baffles me, but I'm happy... err... willing to postpone the debate until which time *if ever* that we see a further issue. 
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